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This episode is called “Toxic Chemicals in our Blood and World.”
It features a conversation with environmental journalist Anna Turns.
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Aaron Goodman 00:05
Welcome to the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. I'm Aaron Goodman, host and founder of podcast. I'm a journalist, documentary maker, university instructor and Communication Studies researcher, and I've lived with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity or MCS for years, also known as Environmental Illness, chemical intolerance and toxic and induced loss, tolerance or TILT. The illness affects millions around the world. Many with the condition are dismissed by healthcare workers, employers, friends and even family. Countless people with MCS struggle to find healthy housing and get accommodation at work and school. And we suffer in all kinds of ways.
The purpose of the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast is to help raise awareness about MCS and what it's like for people who live with it. We featured interviews with some of the world's leading experts, and researchers on MCS, and lots of people with the condition and we're just getting started.
This is episode 28. And the title is "Toxic Chemicals in our Blood and World." It features a conversation with Anna Turns. Anna is a journalist based in England and specializes in reporting on environmental issues. She writes about sustainability, climate change and marine issues. I first learned about Anna's work by reading a piece she wrote about an experiment she did to find out what kinds of toxic chemicals are in her bloodstream. The results are troubling and shed light on how we're all impacted by chemicals, including toxins that have long been banned, but continue to make their way into our bodies and is also the author of the 2022 book "Go Toxic Free, Easy and Sustainable Ways to Reduce Chemical Pollution."
The book explores the environmental impacts of chemicals, where they come from and how they show up in common household items, and offer suggestions for how people can reduce the number of chemicals they use in their homes. In our conversation you'll hear and explore the extent of chemical pollution in the world. The experiment Anna did to find out what kinds of chemicals are lingering in her bloodstream. How chemical companies and governments can respond to consumers demands to limit chemicals, how ordinary people can find out which chemicals are safe and which ones are not how members of marginalized communities are disproportionately affected by toxic chemicals. And Anna ends the interview on a relatively positive note.
I hope you enjoy the conversation and find it a benefit. We release new episodes twice a month, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Find us on social media, just search for the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast or Podcasting MCS. Leave your comments about anything you hear on the podcast and please share the podcast with others. You can find the podcast on YouTube and read closed captions in any language you like. Leave a review on Apple podcasts, it's a great way to help others learn about the podcast. If there's someone you'd like to hear interviewed on the podcast or topic you'd like us to explore email firstname.lastname@example.org. We love hearing from you. And if you liked the podcast and want to support it, please find links on the website. And in the show notes. Your help allows us to continue making the podcast and create greater awareness about MCS. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And thanks for listening.
Aaron Goodman 03:44
Anna, thank you so much for joining me. It's wonderful to talk with you. Thank you.
Anna Turns 03:48
Pleasure. Nice to be here.
Aaron Goodman 03:49
Would you like to say a little bit about yourself your background as a journalist and writer and maybe particularly how you got interested in this field of chemical pollution.
Anna Turns 03:58
So, I'm an environmental journalist based in the UK and I specialize in writing about solutions. So I often take really tricky subjects like climate crisis, biodiversity loss, and also chemical pollution and try and put a positive spin on it, not making it fluffy and dumbing down but looking at the progress, the innovations, the change makers who are doing really cool stuff to solve problems. Now I'm a biologist originally, I studied biology at university many years ago. And I've worked in the media since then. And I've always been really curious about science and looking at kind of, so I spend my time through my work looking at progress, the innovations, the change makers trying to do things to solve problems. And what I'm really fascinated about is finding stories that haven't generally been told yet. And as my job as a journalist, I'm always driven by my my sort of natural curiosity, I suppose about science about how the world works about what can we change and how can we make this world better?
Anna Turns 05:00
Now quite a few years ago, I ran a plastic pollution campaign with my daughter in a town where I live in South Devon, which is the seaside town in the countryside in England. And what I really noticed was, people became much more aware about the single use problem. But everything was focused on plastic bottles and straws. And what I was seeing was all this stuff in the sea. And I wanted to know what happened when it broke up into tiny pieces, but also, what happened to the chemicals inside the plastic once they leached out. And no one was really talking about this at the time. And it just got me thinking about it. And obviously, I went down this rabbit hole of asking these questions to myself and looking at the research and finding that actually, obviously, is a big, big sort of science research area in this but it wasn't really in the mainstream. So I set about trying to start telling stories to translate the really complicated science into engaging stories. So that's what I do in my day to day job. As a journalist, I write articles, I write features, I make audio documentaries.
Anna Turns 05:03
But also I was approached a few years ago to write this book, "Go Toxic Free." And that was just a massive, deep dive really into this situation. And it was a bigger challenge than even the plastic pollution. Because it's invisible. It's not as tangible. It's a it's a really forgotten problem. And often when you talk about chemistry, it can be really scary for people. So it was a bigger hurdle for me in terms of a communicator, trying to make this sort of tell the story in bite size, empowering chunks.
Aaron Goodman 06:38
Yes. And I really appreciate how you've said, Anna, that it is complicated. And in our conversation today, we're definitely not going into the nitty gritty of of all of the details. But you know, for listeners, I really encourage you to pick up a copy of Anna's book, because the way Anna writes really makes it accessible for us. And that's really helpful. Anna, do you think we're at some kind of a tipping point in terms of the number of chemicals that were exposed to that we're all exposed to you right about a chemical cocktail that we live in? I should just say, people with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, most mostly are aware of this. But do you think we're living in a chemical soup or cocktail?
Anna Turns 07:24
So it's interesting when I speak to scientists, sometimes they say, well, our bodies are designed to detox stuff. And we have always lived in a world where there are dangerous poisons and things like that. And and we have evolved to live to some level within that sort of cocktail. But in the last few decades, that level of synthetic chemical, sort of extra toxic load, basically on our bodies, has escalated to a stage where for some people, it is extremely, really, really harmful. Sometimes it's like an extra load, and we can still manage it inside our bodies. But everybody is different. And also everybody's exposures are different.
Anna Turns 08:06
In terms of a tipping point, I think there's something else to discuss in terms of the global states. And it was really, really fascinating, because the year that the week, sorry that my book came out in 2022. A new report came out from the University of Stockholm, which basically warned that chemical pollution had literally just tipped beyond planetary boundaries. So we have gone to the point where things are imbalancing ecosystems, the level of pesticides is impacting insect biodiversity, and loss of species, all of these kinds of things, which makes everything really, really unstable. So it puts pressure on the earth stability to regulate, I suppose, and to maintain that normal system. And with that, plus the climate crisis, it you just feel like everything's a little bit pushed to the edge. And we don't necessarily have that resilience that we need. So it's happening on both levels, I would say it's happening on an individual person level, and it's happening on a planetary level.
Aaron Goodman 09:07
Could you talk a little bit about the blood tests that you did? it's, it's really fascinating.
Anna Turns 09:11
I was trying really hard to find a way to make this idea of a toxic load, relatable. And I got really curious, I started looking at scientists who were doing these blood tests for the UN, actually, and they were doing testing people, about 100,000 people around the world, this one scientist had developed this body burden test. And basically it was a protocol to assess different people's body burdens in different populations in different parts of the world. And to look at it at that level. So it's not necessarily looking at the nuances between individuals but looking at trends. And this project had been going for quite a few years, but they weren't actively doing it anymore. And I interviewed him for the for the book, and I asked, is there any chance I could possibly get my blood tested and we looked everywhere in the UK and there was nobody that could do this. Its a very, very specialist thing. And in the end, we found a lab in Norway. That would do it, it was really, really expensive. But I thought it was a really important thing to do, because it made it all much more apparent and more easier to visualize, basically. So I went down the road to my local doctor surgery, I had my blood taken, I had to courier off to Norway. And then I had to wait for about six weeks while they tested it for about 100 Different POPs, which are these persistent organic pollutants.
Anna Turns 10:30
Now people might have heard of POPs, they include a huge range of contaminants. They're synthetic, that we're talking about the toxic synthetic chemicals, so things like pesticides, and flame retardants, and, and all of these things that are in our world. And it's very hard to escape them. But really, they were looking at the different levels of these chemicals. So they looked at about 100 or so different chemicals took quite a few weeks. And eventually I had an email, which had this document attached to it with my results, I opened it, and it was about eight sides of A4. And it was so long, I couldn't understand the names of the chemicals. And even when I recognized the names of chemicals, I didn't know what the concentrations meant. Because it's all relative, something might look like it's really low.
Anna Turns 11:16
But actually, it shouldn't be there at all. It's about context. So I then got on the phone to the scientist, again, who helped me translate that and explain it. And it was really, really fascinating. And one thing he said to me was that actually everyone has a different body burden. Everyone has a different pattern of those chemicals inside us. But each person's sort of profile, I suppose, reflects their own life experience and their own history and where they've lived and what kind of activities they might have taken, been involved in. And the things that there weren't any sort of, he didn't make me panic, he was really great at sort of reassuring me that most of this was really, really normal.
Anna Turns 11:56
But there are a few things that he was quite surprised that and one was a pesticide that was banned in the UK in 1981. I was born in 1980. And my mother came from a farming family. So I wonder whether she had quite a high exposure of this insecticide as a as a younger person, and then perhaps passed it on through the womb or through breastfeeding, perhaps. And the reason this was still quite high in me, he said, was because it had a really long half life. Now that's the time it takes for a chemical to reduce in concentration by half. And it was something like 35 years for this chemical. So what I immediately worried was, I've passed that on to my two children. So I have then had it in me it's not my fault. It's obviously not my mother's fault. It's just it's just, that's what's happened.
Anna Turns 12:45
But even though that chemical was banned in 1981, the effects that it is still having haven't just disappeared, because it lingers and it lingers in our blood, it lingers in soil, in our air and our water in our wildlife. The some of these chemicals are really, really persistent. And it's that persistence that makes the regulations so hard. So because we want bans of the really hazardous and harmful chemicals. But it doesn't work overnight. It needs to, we need to be precautionary, we need to look ahead and go, which to the ones that are going to be really dangerous in the future. Net. Like we need to think about that. Now in terms of the ones we're regulating and allowing onto the market so that we don't then go Oh, actually, we need to ban them, we need to make sure that the ones we let on the market are the safe, healthy ones that we can all manage our bodies can manage the environment can manage. And they they're not going to stick around forever.
Anna Turns 13:41
The other thing that my blood test showed up was a group of chemicals called p fast, which you might well have covered before in your podcast quite a lot. Basically, these forever chemicals are everywhere. They're in household items. They're in our clothing, they're in our frying pans, but they're also used a lot in firefighting foam. And one of the things he said is, he said there's no way of knowing why these are relatively high in your body and where the source is. But I did say to him, Well, actually I grew up near an airport. And firefighting foams have a really high prevalence in airports because they use quite a lot. And there is a chance that perhaps because I was only a few miles away, it seeped more into the water table and became part of my system that way. So that was a little bit of speculation. But it's just interesting to know that once it's out there, you can't pinpoint where it's come from. But you also you can't stop it coming coming back to you. So really, it was just a massive wake up call. And it didn't. It didn't freak me out in that I thought oh my gosh, what am I going to do? I need to get my blood out of my body. It just made me so I just felt so strongly that I need to tell these stories so that this doesn't keep happening to generation and generation and generation.
Aaron Goodman 14:53
Anna Turns 14:54
It's like the DDT, the famous pesticide that got banned decades ago. I had stuff I had that in me and that was banned before I was born. And it's just, it is crazy that these things, they don't go away. So we've just got to be precautionary, really, that was the biggest thing I kind of came away with.
Aaron Goodman 15:12
Yeah, I mean, if I were to put myself in your shoes, I would be really freaked out, I think. And just to be clear, this test is, most people just can't get it or it's prohibitively costly for them. So mostly, we won't get it in terms of regulation, if we can just look briefly at that piece, you know, people with who live with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, we're just, I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I think we're really aware of the under regulation or the lack of regulation, you know, because we're affected by so many chemicals that are, you know, we really, probably there should be more regulation. And and what's your sense, you know, do you think governments, the the UN International organizations are on top of this? Are they are they Is there a lot more they need to be doing? Is it not even on their radar? How would you evaluate that that part?
Anna Turns 16:05
I think it's on their radar, but I do not think they're doing enough. And I think like you say, it needs to be an international regulation, because these chemicals travel, they're in our rain, they're in the oceans, they're everywhere. And also, if you think about it, our supply chains are everywhere, these global complex convoluted supply chains, they're not within borders, everything needs to be regulated. And one problem we've got is that sometimes things might be banned for use in the UK, for example. But those companies might carry on making them and export them to other countries. And then we re import the food, and it's got these pesticide residues on them. And you think this is bonkers. It's not safe for anyone.
Anna Turns 16:43
So we need to think globally and coherently about this for everybody's health and for the whole environment sake. I do feel that as citizens as consumers, and as individuals, I think we all have a massive role. I mean, it shouldn't be up to us. But we do have a role to play in voicing our concerns and amplifying those concerns, and questioning things like even to the point where if something doesn't have the ingredients on the back, asking the shop assistant, they might not know the answer. But they might go Oh, actually, we need to know this, if we're selling this, and suddenly that message goes up the up the chain. But I do I think I think raising awareness with big retailers getting business to shift. And the more that consumers show, they want to know this this stuff, the more they will provide it. And then that changes the retail landscape because suddenly, the big companies are doing it and regulation is sped up a little bit.
Anna Turns 17:40
Regulation is incredibly slow to happen. It's just it happens at a snail's pace. And I mean, you see it with everything with plastics, it's just it's very disjointed. And it's cotton buds banned here, and plastic bags banned here and forks over here and knives over there. It doesn't make any sense. So with the global plastics treaty that's coming in, that's really brilliant, because it's starting to think much more widely about that. But we need something similar for chemicals, right? A universal approach, I think so. And also, it's really tricky, because it's not as simple as just looking at the ingredients in a product. Sometimes it's the chemicals that are used back in the process of making the packaging or making the ingredients to go into the product. So it's looking at that whole system, it's not just looking at the end thing, it's looking at the formulas kind of way back in that system. And I think a lot, we need a lot more investment in green chemistry that research behind biodegradable, healthier chemicals that just make more sense as well. And they're more, they're more economical, but they're more environmentally friendly, because they are that they are more more tailored to a circular system, basically, which is ultimately more sustainable.
Aaron Goodman 18:52
Circular system. And that's something you write about in your book. And I think we understand what that means, right? That, that everything is recyclable and reusable. And there's more about that in the book. But you know, you talk about the lack of regulation. And you know, I'm picturing myself and others in the aisle of the grocery store that reading labels. And that really is a burden. And that's something we've talked about others have commented on talked about that, you know, really creates a lot of burden for the consumer in terms of time, financial resources, you know, it just it's such a burden, and it predominantly falls on women. That's what the research shows and what other guests have said, how do you view that you know, that we're, we're sort of left, we really are left to figure it out. And as you noted, Anna, we're talking about chemistry, right. So yeah, it's a really complicated terminology. It's complicated. So how do we navigate this burden?
Anna Turns 19:48
It's really complicated. I can't even pronounce some of the words on the labels and and we shouldn't have to, we shouldn't have to know how to look up which chemicals are safe for us or which chemicals we should be reducing our in our homes. And sometimes they're not even named because in fragrances, you've got hundreds, as I'm sure you've covered, you've got hundreds of different chemicals, and there's no legal duty to list them. I'm not saying chemicals are bad. So there's a lot of language here that is really important to clarify. So my cup of tea here is a chemical, it's everything around me is made of chemistry and chemistry is really incredible.
Anna Turns 20:25
There's a lot of fear around chemistry, because it can be scary when we're at school, or we might not understand it. And then we might think, oh, gosh, it's really intimidating. And you just don't want to know. But in terms of the book, and in terms of what you're covering it, it's a really sort of sharp end of spectrum, it says toxic, harmful hazardous chemicals that we really shouldn't be exposed to that we need to regulate, it's, it should not be a burden. It shouldn't come down to us at all. But at the moment, it does, because the system is not fair. And we don't all have the knowledge to understand this, we don't all have the time. And we don't always have the luxury of looking for alternatives, we might just like, I'm certainly not perfect in this way. Like sometimes you're in a rush, and you've got to grab something from the shops for your kids. And it's you just get what's available. Like it's, it's a really tricky thing.
Anna Turns 21:15
And ideally, what we'd love to work towards is a supermarket aisle where you know, everything is safe and drinkable. And you could pour anything down the sink, and it's never gonna harm anything. That's that's the goal. And I think that is the goal for most people. But it's really tricky. I think this is why it's so important to use our voices, and also our pounds and our dollars to support the companies who are doing really good things. And what I touch on in the book, as well as it's not just about supporting companies who are doing things that are less bad. There are there are ethical businesses that are doing things that are positively regenerative, and good for the soil when you pull them away, and, and healthy for us. And that's what we kind of want to aim for.
Anna Turns 22:03
So part of this circular system where everything is okay and not wasted and make sense. And every resource is valued. Rather than this kind of crazy throwaway mentality in this society that just kind of gets rid of stuff. It's all finite, and it all comes back to bite us in the end. So I think it's just we're at this time where we have to make a bit of a loud noise about it to be a catalyst to then shift that regulation, hopefully in the future, or people who are marginalized, you know, met people from marginalized communities disproportionately affected by toxic chemical pollution. So yes, often because they might be closer to the manufacturing of these things. So there's things like the P Fast chemicals that are used to make waterproof jackets waterproof, for example, that jacket is not toxic to me while I'm wearing it, but the production of it and the eventual disposal of it is really horrific, like their levels of exposure are really really awful.
Anna Turns 23:02
Like, there's a lot in the news at the moment about cancer alley in the US where neoprene is made the chemicals that go into wetsuits to go into neoprene to make wetsuits and the levels of cancer there are so off the chart high. So often those exposures are far, far higher at those ends, and also in places in developing countries where there's informal recycling of lead acid batteries, for example, and then that lead is seeping into the soil and people are growing crops. And it's they're just quite close to it all their developmental issues are much more prevalent, for example.
Anna Turns 23:38
And so yes, and it isn't fair, it's, I do have a slight issue with the idea that going for healthier, more environmentally friendly products is expensive, because I honestly don't think it has to be, I do think you can make very good cleaners with a little bit of vinegar and lemon juice and splash of water and you're done. You don't need to go and buy loads of bleach, bottles and all this kind of stuff. So I think actually, some of it is really liberating because you can come out of that capitalist mode of buying stuff, and save yourself money and do it really, really cheaply. And sometimes just change the behaviour as well. Sometimes you'll kind of you could change your routine rather than just changing the product and simplify things and streamline things.
Anna Turns 24:20
So I think there's a mixture, I think, geographically I think there are issues in terms of where we live. So like I mentioned with the with the airport, it depends on where you are. And if you are able to escape that extreme circumstance, not that the airport was that extreme. But if it had been like a, I don't know, the mining tailings, for example, if I was near that, if I can't afford to leave, I'm stuck. So it's it's a tricky one. And also, I think in terms of kind of general audiences in the US, I think we shouldn't necessarily think it shouldn't be that everything has to be more expensive when it's organics for example like, I think it's the UN has has written widely about the fact that no one should have to eat food that's covered in pesticides, we should all have free access to healthy, nutritious food. And most of us don't, most of us eat things that are covered in lots and lots of chemical, agricultural chemicals.
Anna Turns 25:19
So I think there's a lot to unpick there. In terms of, sometimes, we have the ability to make other choices or to even know that we need to make other choices. And sometimes we were not empowered to do that. Because we might not know or we might not have the access or the money to do that. But also, I don't think doing things in a healthier way has to be a privileged thing.
Aaron Goodman 25:43
You also encourage people to buy less. And I think a lot of people listening are already following that principle of buying less, but yet we have to live in this world of hyper consumerism. Right. So there's a challenge there, right.
Anna Turns 25:55
I do think it's changing, though, I do think that there is a big movement for repairing stuff or reusing stuff or renting things, for buying secondhand. I mean, none of that is rocket science. It's what a lot of people were doing 50-60 years ago. Anyway, it's kind of back to basics, really. But in terms of things like car seats, and clothing, if you've got flame retardants in these synthetic textiles, actually, if you buy secondhand, those levels are going to be much lower. So it's gonna save you money, you're doing something good for the environment, it's probably much healthier, they're not going to be off gassing as much. Same with furniture. And yeah, it's it's a really tricky one. There are companies who are making really sort of sustainable fashion for example, and accessories and things. But often I think the solution is to just have less stuff. And and when you do need to buy new buy secondhand if you can or do a swap or be inventive in terms of how you buy things. So just not not going to the easiest shop down the road. Yeah, actually, do I need it? Or could I borrow it? Or like thinking outside the box a little bit?
Aaron Goodman 26:59
Yeah, I'm sure you can appreciate the secondhand clothing and furniture can be challenging for folks with MCS, just because of the the way they get contaminated with other toxic laundry products. Right. So that's, you know, it makes it a little bit challenging, but I understand the the missive, right. It's about being creative and exploring options. And and sometimes it's just really difficult to find safe options, right?
Anna Turns 27:24
Aaron Goodman 27:25
And hopefully there'll be more going forward. So maybe, as we wrap, not to ask a cliche question, but is there any room for optimism? I think a lot of people listening, including myself, you know, we really, we yearn to feel safe. When we in our homes, you know, we want to be able to invite people to our homes and not be inundated with toxic fragrances and to be in the world and just go to work and go to school and just live without being adversely impacted. And sometimes it feels really daunting, because the potency of these chemicals, the sense are getting stronger and stronger. So that's happening too. But it is also encouraging to hear you talk about some of the things you've talked about. But do we have any reason to to feel like maybe we can get our freedom back, maybe we can can potentially live in a world that is less toxic?
Anna Turns 28:21
So I am a very stubborn optimist. I don't think optimism alone is enough. I don't think we can just hope that one day, it'll get better. But if we sort of take real agency in that act of hope, and we're kind of agents for change, I absolutely think we can change this. And it's it's not, it's not that many steps to making this. Okay. It's just getting the big enough pieces of the jigsaw to shift? I think. So I do feel very hopeful. I do think that there has been a massive wave over recent years in terms of plastic pollution awareness. And I feel like that is hopefully going to come with chemical pollution. I think there's a lot more charities and NGOs around the world who are working really, really hard to raise awareness about this and to solve this behind the scenes.
Anna Turns 29:06
So in terms of sort of manufacturing, it's not even kind of consumer fronted, but manufacturing and government regulations, and lots of campaigning going on. It's hard because like with tobacco and fossil fuels, we've got lots of lobbying from big industry. And we're kind of up against that. But I do feel very strongly that if we use our voices and get those messages out there, we can shift. We don't need everyone to understand this. And we don't need everyone to believe that we need to change it. We just need to get to that tipping point, basically where it's on the radar enough for companies and businesses and governments to think actually, it's time to time to do something. So yes, I do feel hopeful.
Aaron Goodman 29:50
Yeah, and I really want to thank you for all the work you do because the the awareness part is really critical, you know, and that's where I can get discouraged. You know, out among the masses, in the wider public that it seems that it's not on a lot of people's radars, you know, just using any kind of product, you know, and just not being aware of the impact on other people and their own health. And so I, I really appreciate the work you're doing, because awareness really is critical, would you say?
Anna Turns 30:19
Absolutely. And I think even if people are aware of it being a problem, I think there's a real lack of awareness of joining those dots. And I think when we all start to zoom out and see the bigger picture and think, Okay, where is this laptop from? Where are the precious metals from inside it? And where's it gonna go when I finished with it? And is it going to be recycled, looking at the whole story of something, and then thinking about the consequences, every action has an impact, basically, and it can be a positive one. But every, everything has a health impact, everything has an environmental consequence. And once we start joining that up, you can't unknow that. It's, it's just kind of bringing that into people's thinking. So that actually when they are about to purchase something, they consider that and then it might sometimes shift their purchasing decisions. Or they might think, actually, I've got a friend coming around, I'm not going to put that air freshener on, or do you know what I mean? All of those kinds of things. So all the cogs start turning, and suddenly that builds.
Aaron Goodman 31:19
Yeah, well, and thank you so much for everything. It's been really, really interesting, and I really appreciate it.
Anna Turns 31:24
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Aaron Goodman 31:28
That brings us to the end of this episode of the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. Thank you very much to Anna Turns for speaking with me. The podcast is produced by me, Aaron Goodman and Raynee Novak. We release new episodes twice a month. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Find us on social media, just search for the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast or podcasting MCS. Leave your comments about anything you hear on the podcast and please share the podcast with others. You can find the podcast on YouTube and read closed captions in any language you like. Leave a review on Apple podcasts. It's a great way to help others learn about the podcast. If there's someone you'd like to hear interviewed on the podcast or a topic you'd like us to explore, just let us know. Email email@example.com. If you liked the podcast and want to support it, please find links on the website and in the show notes. Your help allows us to continue making the podcast and create greater awareness about MCS. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And thanks for listening