[00:00:00] Aaron Goodman: You are listening to the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. I'm Aaron Goodman, the podcast creator. A lot of people with MCS are struggling. I don't have to tell you. We have little, if any, medical support, and doctors mostly dismiss us, and we're too often rejected by loved ones.

I've had MCS since my youth, and it's been severe for the past 15 years or so. I've tried a number of things in order to keep functioning. I've tried supplements, chelation, nebulizing glutathione, infrared sauna, and more. And what's best for me is avoiding fragrance products as much as possible, making my home as safe as I can, eating healthy. And when I take a hit and I have strong reactions to chemicals, I try to be gentle with myself and trust that I'll bounce back.

You know, someone recently posted online, "Avoid and survive." I really appreciated that. The greatest relief that I've found has been trying to come to terms with the illness, learning to live with it. I recently sought out a naturopath, and when we met in his office, I said I wasn't expecting a cure. His response was that hopefully we can do things that will allow me to not be knocked down so much by chemicals. That would be wonderful.

I'm hopeful, but I'm skeptical of cures—of people who offer folks with MCS a path to full health—and I resent when people try to take advantage of vulnerable people who are desperate for relief. I recently saw someone who runs an online group and is promising a cure for MCS, so I asked the person some questions: What are your qualifications? Are you selling something? How much do you charge? “Just $999,” he said. And I was relieved to hear from this individual that no one has yet turned over that kind of money.

And then I came across the following Thomas Paine quote: “It is the duty of every person to detect and expose delusion and error.”

People with MCS aren't easily fooled. We've been let down by so many. We don't believe when doctors say it's all in our heads, and we have to navigate the world every day with vigilance. We have to be our own detectives to deal with chronic exposures and reactions to toxic chemicals in the environment.

You're listening to the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. I'm Aaron Goodman. I'm a journalist, documentary maker, and researcher. And I'm also someone who's lived with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity—or MCS—for years. MCS is also called chemical intolerance, Toxicant-Induced Loss of Tolerance (TILT), and idiopathic environmental illness, and it affects millions around the world.

It's a condition that makes everyday life extremely challenging and unpredictable. Fragrance, air fresheners, fresh paint, scented laundry products on someone's clothing, and a lot more can trigger exhaustion, brain fog, muscle pain, rashes, and a wide range of symptoms.

And yet, for all its impacts, MCS remains largely invisible. Doctors dismiss it. Employers rarely accommodate it. Even friends and family struggle to understand.

And this podcast aims to change that. We dive into the latest research, share real stories, and explore how people navigate life with an illness many refuse to see.

In this episode, I'm speaking with one of the leading experts on chemical regulation in the United States. Maria Doa is Senior Director of Chemicals Policy at the Environmental Defense Fund, a U.S.-based nonprofit environmental advocacy group.

Dr. Doa focuses on reducing exposures to toxic chemicals through effective, health-protective implementation of the nation's chemical safety laws. You'll hear Dr. Doa talk about the pressures that she and others at the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) faced under the first Trump administration to change the way science is conducted when it comes to understanding and regulating chemicals. I share some listener questions with Dr. Doa about how states and citizens can push back and demand greater safety measures.

[00:04:43] Maria Doa: It's my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:04:45] Aaron Goodman: I really wanted to start off by asking you—I think a lot of people in general, and particularly folks with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity—have a lot of questions and some are quite concerned. I believe at this particular moment, a hundred days into the Trump administration, the second, if regulations on chemicals that harm human health and the environment are going to change, or if they will become more relaxed, if corporations will have greater sway in terms of what they can produce and put on the shelves, etc. Any thoughts on that to get us going, please?

[00:05:24] Maria Doa: Yeah, so I think one of the concerns is, of course, the weakening of the regulations and approaches to dealing with chemicals. We had been making progress by starting to look at the mixture of chemicals we're exposed to, rather than only looking at things chemical by chemical—as if we were exposed in isolation to each of these things by itself.

And when you consider the mixtures, you could make more protective decisions when you regulate the risk of these chemicals. I think now that we're a hundred days in, we think we're going to go backwards. And we're starting to see that.

And I think the other thing that I'm concerned about going forward is that the chemical manufacturers will have more power and will push to have the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) approve chemicals that are toxic. And they want to make these chemicals seem fine so the consumer-facing brands will use them. So a particular concern of mine are sensitizers. EPA has generally not approved sensitizers, and the industry has really pushed back on this.

[00:06:50] Aaron Goodman: Do you want to talk a little bit about what sensitizers are and what kind of products they often show up in, please?

[00:06:56] Maria Doa: So a sensitizer—one that jumps out—is like isocyanates, which are often used in spray foam. And so you may be exposed to a set level, and then you become sensitized, so even smaller amounts generate the same reaction. And these sensitizers can be used in consumer products.

[00:07:22] Aaron Goodman: And that language really makes sense to folks like us. We think about the TILT theory—Toxicant-Induced Loss of Tolerance—developed by Dr. Claudia Miller or colleagues, where the theory is we can become sensitized to chemical products from one large exposure or many smaller exposures. So that seems to be what you're talking about.

[00:07:45] Maria Doa: Oh, exactly. Exactly. And this has been documented, like with isocyanates in workers—spray application of this. We have all this data showing the adverse effects.

[00:07:58] Aaron Goodman: Yeah. Dr. Doa, throughout your career, you've been focused on chemicals for decades. How often does Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, idiopathic environmental illness, Toxicant-Induced Loss of Tolerance, chemical intolerance—how much of it is on your radar?

[00:08:19] Maria Doa: It's on my radar—primarily with things like the sensitizers, as I mentioned. Also, some of the chlorinated solvents that folks are exposed to—used in dry cleaning—because they often cause the same effects. Looking at what's called cumulative risk, and that's dealing with the types of chemicals that cause the same effects when you look at the loading of them together.

[00:08:50] Aaron Goodman: That's really interesting to hear you talk about the combination, because I often talk with researchers who focus on chemicals, and they often say similar things. It's the combination—we don't really know what that risk is, what risks that poses. Is that essentially what you're saying?

[00:09:08] Maria Doa: It's important. It's real life.

The forever chemicals—PFAS—I think most people know what those are. We're exposed to often mixtures. They're everywhere in our environment. I think it's a scientifically much stronger way of looking—rather than looking at things totally in isolation.

[00:09:28] Aaron Goodman: Yeah. And that's our reality, right? Like, when I think of my young children going off to school—on the drive to school or the walk to school—they're being exposed to petrochemicals, maybe people's laundry coming out of their dryer vents. At school: the air fresheners, the laundry products on people's bodies, and more, right?

[00:09:47] Maria Doa: Exactly. And schools just have a mixture of different things. The fragrances in cleaning supplies—for me, that's a big thing. There are also things like the lead that's in older schools or PCBs...

[00:10:04] Aaron Goodman: I'd like to share a brief quote from a scholarly paper published in 2023 in the Journal of Public Health by Anita Desikan and colleagues, and it's about the Trump administration and chemical regulation.

“These attacks on science—such as buried research, censored scientists, halted data collection—increased in number to unprecedented levels. Underserved communities bore the brunt of the harms. Such attacks disproportionately harmed Black, Indigenous, low-income communities and communities of color, all of whom have long been burdened by pollution exposure and other stressors.”

[00:10:42] Maria Doa: I totally agree. Because you know, a lot of these communities—frontline communities—they’re exposed to a greater number of chemicals than the general population, and often at higher levels than the general population. Clearly, they have anything that this administration thinks is DEI or tangentially related—they’re pulling back on. And so they really are trying to cut back any research, putting money into research, looking at the exposures faced by these communities that are already overloaded by chemical exposures.

And it was something that we saw in Trump One. I was at EPA in Trump One, and there was a lot—where the big push was to downplay the toxicity of chemicals so that you didn’t have to regulate them—or if you were going to regulate them, at a much lower level.

[00:11:46] Aaron Goodman: Yeah. I meant to invite you to introduce yourself a little bit more—of course I will have read your bio—but that's a really interesting fact that you mentioned that you were working in the Environmental Protection Agency under the Trump administration. Do you want to talk a little bit about what I could imagine must have been regular pressures? What were your priorities, and what kind of pressures were you meeting when it comes to chemical regulation?

[00:12:12] Maria Doa: So you are correct. There was a lot of pressure under Trump One. I was in the chemicals office. There was pressure to change assessments so that the chemicals looked less toxic, to weaken the regulations on the chemicals. And this was incessant—the whole time I was there.

I was in the toxics office the first two years. Trying to change the science—and how EPA did the science—was another thing. I mean, I pushed back a lot. That pushback… I pushed back on this. And I can’t tell you how many times I said, when they wanted to do something, “Well, that’s not actually correct. We can’t do that. It’s not correct.”

[00:13:03] Aaron Goodman: Were you ever threatened with your job?

[00:13:05] Maria Doa: I wasn’t threatened to be fired. It became untenable, and I—well, eventually I left the Office of Research and Development for the last few years of the first Trump administration. And there was a lot of pressure on EPA in that office to change how the science was being done, and the tools that were being used to conduct the science, so that the chemicals again looked less toxic, less risky.

[00:13:38] Aaron Goodman: Do you hear from any colleagues these days who are working under Trump administration Two?

[00:13:43] Maria Doa: I do. And I think people are reeling—a number of folks are reeling—to deal with the changes that are going on.

[00:13:51] Aaron Goodman: And are there any particular types of chemicals that stand out? Or products? Are we talking about pesticides that people put on their lawns, or are we talking about health and beauty products—or everything?

[00:14:04] Maria Doa: I think there’s a lot of pressure on chemicals that could be used in consumer products. But it’s not from the consumer companies—it’s more from the chemical manufacturers, because they want the consumer-facing brands to be able to use them.

[00:14:23] Aaron Goodman: If we were to talk about particular products—like if we go shopping—are there any particular products that we should be particularly aware of? We talk about dishwasher soap or laundry soap or shampoo, mosquito spray… any tangible products that come to mind?

[00:14:41] Maria Doa: Yeah. Like, I look at cleaning supplies, and I try to make sure that they’re Safer Choice. I tend to stay away from things that have fragrances in them. I’m pretty conscious about cosmetics.

[00:14:55] Aaron Goodman: Yeah. And I think listeners—folks with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity—are pretty well-versed in safer choices, but it's scary if you think about it, that the general population is being exposed to potentially a lot more hazardous levels of products—chemicals.

[00:15:11] Maria Doa: Oh, I agree. And even at plastics—I try to be very careful to stay away from… well, I tend to use glass and other things like that. But a lot of the plastics—particularly PVC—have phthalates in them. And you know, exposure to phthalates causes developmental effects on the reproductive system, as well as a whole range of other things. You’d be surprised at all the stuff that’s in plastics that can come out of plastics.

[00:15:39] Aaron Goodman: It’s really hard as a consumer. I face that choice regularly—am I going to buy the peanut butter, organic, unsalted, in a plastic jar? And it’s a few dollars less. And in the back of my mind, I’m thinking, is this particular plastic jar going to cause harm to my family? And I don’t know the answer to that.

[00:16:00] Maria Doa: If there’s a choice, I will try to use glass containers. And I know that’s not for everyone, because it adds weight and there are other considerations—if you have kids and they drop it. So I understand. But yeah—it’s just something that we deal with, because the potential for exposure is everywhere.

[00:16:20] Aaron Goodman: Everywhere, isn’t it? In the air, in the water, in the food we eat. Please, let me ask you about fragrance—because this is really top of mind for a lot of people with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity. What are your—let me just ask you generally—what are your thoughts on fragrance and the chemical composition and the harms?

[00:16:40] Maria Doa: So I think some fragrances are sensitizers. And so you can have, like, skin sensitizers. And they’re often—particularly in detergents and things—they can be toxic to environmental organisms.

If I’m going to use a fragrance, like in a cologne or something, I am going to be very targeted with that. Just because I don’t know which of the fragrances in a lot of materials will be sensitizers.

[00:17:12] Aaron Goodman: My understanding is that corporations, companies, aren’t required to say what is in fragrance.

[00:17:19] Maria Doa: Well, I know they’re not required—like for a lot of the cleaning supplies—unless they’re in Safer Choice, and then they'll get the information on that.

[00:17:28] Aaron Goodman: You mentioned Safer Choice. Another website or app that people use and recommend is the Environmental Working Group. Is that something you recommend for folks when they’re looking at products to determine if they’re safe or not?

[00:17:43] Maria Doa: Yeah, I think that’s very helpful.

[00:17:45] Aaron Goodman: Yeah. Fragrance products—for me—like my kryptonite is laundry products. And that goes for a lot of people. Whether it’s the fabric softeners or dryer sheets—I’m just currently dealing with a 48-hour reaction from dryer sheets, because they really flood a neighborhood. They contaminate a whole block. I'm exposed to them regularly—as are a lot of people.

And laundry products of all kinds—they seem to be becoming increasingly scented, or the scents are increasingly potent. They’re made to last longer. Do you have any thoughts on the fragrances and the toxicity in laundry products?

[00:18:25] Maria Doa: Not beyond… beyond the sensitization and the ecotox, but I agree. Like, the dryer sheets—you can tell when somebody’s drying their clothes.

[00:18:39] Aaron Goodman: Yeah. And what I often think—on a personal level—is why would someone do that? To be so unaware of the impact on the environment, on other humans, and on themselves. Why would they do that?

But then I think… I think we, often, people with MCS, ask: How could this be? How can these actually be sold and marketed and mass-produced and bought and used? So that’s a regulation question, right?

[00:19:03] Maria Doa: I wonder if it’s also about giving feedback to the companies. They have a lot of products with fragrance—although they also have products without fragrance. But it’s pushing back on the companies, making sure they’re using safer chemicals, I think, that’s really important also.

[00:19:23] Aaron Goodman: Yeah. And that’s one of the areas I was really glad to hear you talk about, because I came across a list that someone posted online about important things that companies can do. And one of them is to empower consumers—first of all, by being more transparent with labels and ingredients and the potential health risks—and then allowing mechanisms for feedback.

Like, if I think about laundry products—it requires a lot of energy for people who have chronic illness, in our case, to find out: How do I get in touch with these people? Am I going to be heard? What are the mechanisms? And that doesn’t seem to be very transparent at the moment.

[00:20:04] Maria Doa: I agree. And I looked at one of the consumer companies earlier today. They have a section on sustainability, but they don’t have a section on green chemistry or safe chemicals.

And I think the other thing with these companies is that we often talk about safer chemicals, but I really think these companies should be using safe chemicals—things that are not going to cause harms. It’s a paradigm shift—trying to encourage and develop ways to have safe chemicals versus “safer.”

[00:20:43] Aaron Goodman: Yeah, that’s very encouraging. The list I mentioned—one of them is to develop fragrance-free products. And we see that sometimes. I can think of a laundry product where they have the scented version and a fragrance-free version.

And I know there’s differences between “unscented” and “fragrance-free.” There are nuances there. But sometimes it’s an illusion too, right? Like these safer products—they’re not always that safe. Correct?

[00:21:08] Maria Doa: Right. And sometimes scents are added to cover up the smell of another chemical. So they’re not adding something to smell like lilac, but they are adding something to cover up maybe a kind of chemical smell from something else.

You know, the other thing I wanted to mention—states are taking action on this—are things that are added to detergents that are endocrine disruptors. So they affect us, affect plants, animals—those more subtle things affect health.

[00:21:51] Aaron Goodman: Yes, yes. I’m glad you mentioned that. And then we have the states—some are taking action and hopefully more will. And in Canada and other countries—local governments, provincial governments—hopefully they will call for action and do more.

But when it comes to the individual—we talked about providing feedback to companies. A listener of this podcast asks: How can we plan to help ourselves in the face of regulations going out the window? Who are the allies in government, nonprofits, universities, labs, that the MCS community can work with?

[00:22:25] Maria Doa: Well, I think Washington State and California are leaders in this area. And I think it’s important—it’s a little bureaucratic—but if the states are out front before the federal government takes action, the states can have a more protective law. Because if the federal government takes action first, it preempts the states. So I think being vocal at the state level is really important.

[00:22:55] Aaron Goodman: Yeah. Like I just saw someone did a study about MCS in India, and they report that over half the population in India has MCS. It’s not surprising. And I wonder if the U.S. relaxing their regulations on chemicals could have a global impact?

[00:23:13] Maria Doa: There are two parts. One is: things made in the U.S. or allowed in the U.S. can have a global impact if the supply chains are global.

The second way it could have a global impact is if the chemicals that are being used in the U.S. are bioaccumulative and toxic, and they can undergo long-range transport. I mean, there are a number of pesticides that have turned up in the Arctic.

[00:23:48] Aaron Goodman: Yes. And on that note, I’ve come across studies that show that fragrances are showing up in the Antarctic as well.

When we talk about supply chains, I often think of what’s happening in Japan—and I’m hoping to have a guest on, a researcher from Japan, who can talk about the growing level of MCS in Japan. It’s because multinational corporations are increasingly selling highly fragranced laundry products there. And thousands and thousands of people are developing MCS—becoming sensitized—and it wasn’t an issue before.

[00:24:20] Maria Doa: Wow. Wow.

[00:24:21] Aaron Goodman: It’s really sad. Yeah, it’s really sad.

[00:24:23] Maria Doa: It is. And you know, I think another area—because I accidentally bought this—I usually buy unscented laundry detergent from a green supplier, and I accidentally bought one with fragrance. That’s another area too.

[00:24:48] Aaron Goodman: What are you wondering?

[00:24:49] Maria Doa: Do our laundry detergents need all these smells? I just joke.

[00:24:53] Aaron Goodman: Yeah. And you mentioned choice, right? And we talked about the burden that falls on the consumer. And I often feel like it’s an oppression. We’re being oppressed because we’re forced to do this labor. And often it falls on women in households to do it, right?

It’s really complicated—reading labels in the first place. So we have to become lay chemists just to keep our families—and ourselves—safe.

[00:25:18] Maria Doa: The way the regulations work is you need to be able to quantify the benefits of, let’s say, not allowing fragrances in detergents. And that’s not a trivial thing, because you would have to not only identify the harms from exposure to these multiple chemicals, but monetize the benefits of prohibiting it. And I think that just makes it more complicated.

[00:25:48] Aaron Goodman: Yeah, and that’s interesting. There is a huge growing market who wants these really genuinely safe, unscented, fragrance-free products.

Well, I’d like to—as we aim toward wrapping up—I’d like to ask you a couple specific questions from listeners.

What is being done to regulate, limit, eliminate the use of chemicals in schools, public medical facilities, and senior care and nursing homes?

[00:26:15] Maria Doa: So there are some laws that apply—like to lead and asbestos in schools—but a lot that’s being done is, you know, at the federal level for schools. And again, focusing on cleaning supplies and addressing vapor intrusion—chemicals that may be in groundwater that come up through buildings, through homes and schools.

The regulations are limited on everything that’s being used in schools.

[00:26:49] Aaron Goodman: And hospitals. People really have challenges with fragrances in hospitals.

[00:26:54] Maria Doa: Yeah. It’s mostly trying to get the folks who run these things to manage it differently—in terms of the cleaning agents that they’re bringing in, or how they’re doing their renovations in the schools—and dealing with things like mercury and lead and asbestos.

[00:27:13] Aaron Goodman: And the cleaning products that you mentioned. And the air fresheners. And a lot of us are aging, and a lot of people have questions about: What can I do as I age and I can’t be in my own home? Is it possible to find a residential place—for lack of a better word—that’s going to be safe for me?

And because of lax regulations, it can be tough.

[00:27:33] Maria Doa: Oh, for sure. Yeah. And you have to be very diligent, I think—just to make sure they’re not using all these chemicals.

[00:27:42] Aaron Goodman: It falls on the managers, the companies. The regulation is not there to protect us.

[00:27:47] Maria Doa: Yes. Going back to what’s happening now—they cut all this research money. People were—there were grants that were looking at dealing with chemicals more—and it’s just going to set everything back more. And people are going to suffer.

[00:28:04] Aaron Goodman: You’ve been listening to the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. I’m the host and podcast creator, Aaron Goodman. The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast is by and for the MCS community.

The podcast is supported by the Marilyn Brockman Hoffman Foundation and listeners like you. If you wish to support the podcast, please visit chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org. Your support helps us continue making the podcast available and creating greater awareness about MCS.

To learn more about the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast, find the podcast group on Facebook, on YouTube, Instagram, Bluesky, and TikTok. And as always, you can reach me at aaron@chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org.

Thanks for listening.

The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast and associated website are the work of Aaron Goodman, made possible with funds from the Marilyn Brockman Hoffman Foundation, supporting efforts to educate and inform physicians, scientists, and the public about Multiple Chemical Sensitivity.

The content, opinions, findings, statements, and recommendations expressed in this Chemical Sensitivity Podcast and associated website do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of its sponsors.