[00:00:00] Aaron Goodman: You are listening to the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. I'm the podcast creator Aaron Goodman. Today's episode focuses on something many listeners live every day, toxic exposures hidden in everyday products. I'm speaking with researcher Adriana ovs. Environmental health professor Dr. Caroline Barko about their study on women's awareness, beliefs, and avoidance of endocrine disrupting chemicals in personal care.

[00:00:33] In household products, we discuss which chemicals women recognize, which fly under the radar, how symptoms drive behavior. What their findings mean for people with multiple chemical sensitivity and for public health more broadly. Adriana Kovski is an environmental health researcher with the Environmental Health Association of Quebec.

[00:00:56] Her work focuses on women's exposure to endocrine disrupting chemicals and multiple chemical sensitivity. Dr. Caroline Barco is an associate professor of environmental and occupational health. At Ontario Tech University in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, and a scientific advisor to the Environmental Health Association of Quebec, researching environmental exposures and health across the life course.

[00:01:24] Thank you for listening to the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast, some exciting news. Please check out and share a link for the podcast's new. Webpage Listen dot chemical sensitivity podcast.org. It's easy to share with any MCS skeptics in your life. Your doctor, employer, even family and friends. Listen dot chemical sensitivity podcast.org and please subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:01:59] To learn more, follow the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast on YouTube. Facebook X, Instagram, blue Sky, and TikTok. And as always, you can reach me at aaron@chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org. Thank you both for joining me on the podcast. 

[00:02:19] Caroline Barakat, PhD: Thank you for having us. Thank .

[00:02:22] Aaron Goodman: Absolutely. It's a pleasure. Would you like to briefly introduce yourselves and, and then we can talk more in depth about your research on MCS.

[00:02:33] Caroline Barakat, PhD: Caroline, we'll go first. I'm Professor Caroline Barakat from Ontario Tech University Faculty of Health Sciences. I do research in environmental health. Um, part of my research and one of my research agenda focuses on. Um, chemicals and personal care products and household products and how they impact the health of individuals.

[00:02:56] I focus a lot on, uh, women or females, um, because a lot of my research builds on this life course perspective that, um, exposure occurs early on. In the womb as a fetus and then continues throughout life. 

[00:03:13] Adriana Trifunovski: I'm Adriana and Caroline was my master supervisor, and I graduated last year actually, so I'm very new.

[00:03:23] But my thesis revolved around, um, environmental health as well, um, looking at chemicals from personal care in the household products. And I've had kind of the opportunity to continue this work into my current role at, um, asec. And, um, continuing to look at now indoor air quality and different kind of chemicals that stem from there.

[00:03:48] Aaron Goodman: And ASAC stands for?

[00:03:51] Adriana Trifunovski: the Environmental Health Association of Quebec. The thank you, uh, Canadian version. 

[00:03:57] Aaron Goodman: Thank you very much. Yes. I think listeners sometimes have the question in mind. Um, you know, do researchers have, um, a footing in, in the world or the lived experience? And if it's not too personal, may I ask, um, but your motivation for doing this work, I know Professor Barett, you've been involved in this research for a long time.

[00:04:22] Um, Adriana. You're deeply involved in the work, is there a personal angle for you that, that drives you to conduct this work?

[00:04:33] Caroline Barakat, PhD: So, I'm assuming it starts with me here and, um, it's a very important question and, and I, I don't even, you know, know how to respond to that because it isn't a personal experience in terms of multiple chemical sensitivity. Mm-hmm. I have. Natural science background. So my undergraduate degree was into the sciences, the biology, the chemistries and all that.

[00:05:01] And then I became very interested in environmental sciences, so I ended up having a major in environmental sciences and. The pioneering work at that time was Rachel Carson's book and, and, uh, everything in terms of the environmental health impact of anthropogenic activities. So that became an interest for me.

[00:05:23] Um, and you became a little, you become a little bit more sensitized to This is really happening. I am getting annoyed or I did get annoyed when I was in a hair salon and hairspray was all over the place. Or if Uranus. Smoking environment and everybody's smoking around you. So there are experiences that you encounter on a day to day basis.

[00:05:46] When you learn more about the science of it, this is where things a little bit shift. Like, how can you make a difference in this world? How can you impact the health of individuals? And, and, and part of being a parent as well, you're, you're thinking always, you want to protect the, the children. So I didn't wanna be in an exposure.

[00:06:06] That impacted my children, whether it was even smoking or anything, uh, like that. So I, I can't say it was an experience with a diagnosis, formal diagnosis. Mm-hmm. But definitely experiences with, uh, being sensitized to certain chemicals, either the sense not being something that you are, you are really.

[00:06:28] Accepting or living with and, and, and wanting to change this from women. So, um, and then it becomes, you know, like a, a science like that going into the academia of things and learning more about it, and then delving more into the, uh, the specifics of why is it Im, why it is impacting the physical health of individuals, the, the emotional health of individuals, the perceptions of health as well, and how that also has an impact.

[00:06:57] Aaron Goodman: On people's health. Oh, thank you for sharing. Uh, Adriana. 

[00:07:02] Adriana Trifunovski: So it's along the lines of me as well. Um, MCSI don't have a personal, um, experience with that, although when I think back. In my life, I have met people that were, um, impacted by this. And the sad thing is they probably didn't know it. Mm-hmm. And they still probably don't.

[00:07:20] Um, for example, like kind of Caroline mentioned the hairdresser, uh, a hair salon and I did know a hairdresser that, um, would always get impact. She had to cut down her work hours and she was very impacted by the scent and she just would always get migraines and didn't know. Why this was, and at the time I didn't know why this was either.

[00:07:40] Because of my work and through my organization and through research, I can kind of help educate her on this. And, um, so I have known people, I do know the effects of it. Um, but what got me in this was. Into environmental health was I was in a biology course in my fourth year of my undergraduate, um, degree in the sciences as well.

[00:08:04] So like the bio, bio, the biology, the chemistries and all of that. And, um, there was one five-minute conversation about. Uh, chemicals in our everyday products that we use. And then the slide just switched and we never talked about it again. And I just thought, wait, what? I, I just, I couldn't believe that this was a thing.

[00:08:23] I had never heard of it, and something just clicked in me like I, I just needed to know more. And thankfully when I looked at, uh, supervisors for my masters, um, Dr. Barakat was. One of them, and she happened to have a project that revolved exactly around this, which was mm-hmm. Um, endocrine disruptors in personal care and household products.

[00:08:49] And the perceptions of these that women have. And then it was just kind of snowballed from there. When I was doing my data collection, I was actually in person and I talked to lots of participants.  

[00:09:01] Adriana Trifunovski: And when this was brought to their attention, they were just like floored kind of how I was. And that motivated me even more to continue this, just seeing how they didn't know this and.

[00:09:12] Um, then personal experiences came out and MCS was one of them, and it was in our, which we'll talk about later, and it just all snowballed into where I am today. 

[00:09:22] Aaron Goodman: So it sounds like what you both have in common perhaps, is a, is a growing awareness of the, the saturation of toxic chemicals in our environment.

[00:09:30] That the amount of exposures we're all faced with on a day-to-day basis. And that has motivated both of you into your scientific, uh, and important research. Dr. Barat, uh, would you like to talk a little bit about the study itself into, uh, women's awareness of the harms of toxic chemicals? 

[00:09:52] Caroline Barakat, PhD: Yeah, sure. Um. So when you become interested in, in a study like that and you're very interdisciplinary in nature, like this is, my training was very much interdisciplinary.

[00:10:03] I have a lot of background in, uh, you know, human geography 'cause I am medical geographer by training. Um, and then as well as environmental science. You start thinking of not just the clinical aspects of things, but how are you going to be bridging all this information? So how are people using those toxic products?

[00:10:24] What do they know about them and are they impacting their health? Is there someone that's affected by those sensitivities? And this is where this research agenda pretty much emerged. It was a little bit, you know, during COVID when I put in, and we're all like restricted in terms of resources. I put in the funding call and someone really bright early on in my career said it's baby steps, right?

[00:10:48] Like you, you, you have this feeling that there's toxic chemicals everywhere. People are impacted by it. There's a rise in chronic, um, diseases everywhere. Um, and the personal stories that Adriana had, like I have a cousin who got lymphoma that she worked in the lab. Directly exposed to chemicals. I thank God she's good.

[00:11:09] Uh, now, but then, then you just start thinking like, what's that baby step that I'm going to make a difference? Um, yeah. On. Mm-hmm. And, and I attended earlier on a conference that looked at, um, the main focus is whose responsibility is it to let the people know, specifically the females or women who are pregnant about those toxic potential impacts. Of personal care products and it went out all over the place.  

[00:11:35] Caroline Barakat, PhD: So we started with a study, envisioning the study to look at questioning, uh, pulling a, developing a questionnaire mm-hmm. That asks women if they've ever heard of priority. Decline disruptor chemicals. And so the first step to it was, um, deciding what do we ask them about?

[00:11:54] We want it to be tangible. So which priority chemicals are we going to be asking them about? And so I'm gonna let Adriana talk about the chemicals that we selected. Mm. We went in from the basics. Have you heard of this chemical? Do you know anything about it? And we wanted to assess three main domains.

[00:12:16] Caroline Barakat, PhD: If they knew anything about it, if they perceived any health impacts related to those priority endocrin disrupting chemicals. Mm-hmm. And if they believed that these impacted their health  

[00:12:30] Caroline Barakat, PhD: As well as social demographic variables. And then other variables related to their family members. And so it was a little bit post COVID when we did data collection.

[00:12:40] And this is where Adriana did her amazing work collecting data from 200 women that attended a show in, um, downtown Toronto as well as, uh, Ontario Tech University. Um. And administer this questionnaire to them to find out what do we know about whether they're aware of these chemicals, how much they know about it, what do they believe it impacts their health or not?

[00:13:06] And then what are their general perceptions of these chemicals? 

[00:13:12] Aaron Goodman: Great. Adriana, let's hear more please. 

[00:13:16] Adriana Trifunovski: Yeah, so just taking off from there. Uh, yeah, we did do in-person, um, data collection of 200 women and uh, one was at the Women's Show, uh, in downtown Toronto. It's an annual show that's held in the fall 

[00:13:31] Adriana Trifunovski: And at Ontario Tech University. Um, and so yeah, just collecting information and just having, I think the in-person was the best thing we could have done, especially with. Because it was kind of like we're collecting information, but we're also kind of distributing information. Mm-hmm. So when we were collecting it, and a lot of women had so many questions like, what do you mean what is happening?

[00:13:54] And I've never heard of these, or, or I, and one woman, I never, I, she came up to me and she was saying, yeah, you know what? I had, um, she said she has, she had breast cancer and she was almost certain that it came from, or part of the contribution of that was. From plastic, like this was her words, it was from plastic bottles.

[00:14:14] Mm. Um, and, um, just hearing all these stories, it really does motivate you and mm-hmm. I think the general consensus was that they, women were just not aware of the, um, priority chemicals that we were studying. Mm-hmm. Which were, um, lead, parabens, uh, bisphenol A.

[00:14:36] Adriana Trifunovski: BPA kind of most commonly. Said, 

[00:14:40] Adriana Trifunovski: Phthalates, tri Closin and Perchloroethylene. Mm-hmm. So these were from literature we found to be priority, um, chemicals. 

[00:14:49] Aaron Goodman: Hmm. And when you say priority chemicals, um, does this mean that they are found in many consumer products, personal care products, cleaning products? 

[00:15:02] Adriana Trifunovski: Yes, correct. A lot of literature has studied this and it was found.

[00:15:07] Aaron Goodman: And as I'm listening to you, I'm, I think about my own experience. Um, I don't recall if reading labels and seeing these chemicals, so these, are they listed at all in terms of, you know, on, on labels? 

[00:15:26] Adriana Trifunovski: Some. So that's a big conversation. Um mm-hmm. But yes, sometimes they, they are, and I actually, since this whole conversation has started up. 

[00:15:36] Adriana Trifunovski: We've seen a lot of, you know, pH free products or parabens free or made without parabens. Yeah. But what I have come across in my work at ASEC was that, uh. If you have a term fragrance, um, and this is just from the work that I do and information I've learned, um, these chemicals can be hidden mm-hmm. Um, behind this term.

[00:16:03] Aaron Goodman: Yeah, perhaps Professor Barakat. I could ask you more about the, about fragrance now. 'cause this is definitely on the top of people's minds, among other issues, you know, all of these chemicals, but fragrance is very much of a concern for people with multiple chemical sensitivity.

[00:16:20] And what could you tell us about what is in fragrance? It's something that, um, is a bit of a mystery, isn't it? Um, what do we know about fragrance? 

[00:16:32] Caroline Barakat, PhD: So this is what complicates things, right? Like we, we, we ask, and even though we're doing research in this area. There was no way for even, you know, many experts to know all these toxins and chemicals that are in this product.

[00:16:47] Um, so for example, I'm also on the scientific, um, committee for asac. Mm-hmm. And they did a study on VOCs in buildings, which sent and, and non-scented uh, um, policies.  

[00:17:02] Caroline Barakat, PhD: So even when you're looking at. Scent. There's a lot that goes into, well, what is it that we are going to be testing, even if we're testing volatile organic compounds?

[00:17:11] What specific volatile organic compounds. This is a class of compounds with hundreds of different chemicals, so it complicates what individual consumers. Understand in terms of what are they going to choose? So going back to your question, originally, like when we are thinking about the six chemicals that we had, we wanted to know what individuals knew about.

[00:17:37] Caroline Barakat, PhD: We know that in the nineties, BPA became. The two thousands onward, BPA became a thing. So, you know, don't use plastic baby bottles. It has to be BPA free. So a lot of the consumer products started labeling it as BPA free, and that may be a simpler, you know, form of, of, uh, letting people know. But when you think about, uh, phthalates, there are so many different types of phthalates.

[00:18:03] Some products would say phthalate free. But then might use a different compound that's related in the ingredients. And then this is where, you know, a lot of people wouldn't know what they are using.  

[00:18:15] Caroline Barakat, PhD: Tricent is, is, uh, a chemical that's used in antiseptic products, so even toothpaste or hand, uh, sanitizers.

[00:18:26] And a lot, a lot of people know about triply. So again, it's, it's our, our job within research was to try to see. Who has gone into at least learning something about those chemicals? 

[00:18:40] Caroline Barakat, PhD: Our shock is when we had a high percentage of individuals that said that we have never heard of parabens, for example, or have never heard of.

[00:18:50] I mean, lead tends to be more common. And even that some people have never heard of lead. Um, but lead is one of those chemicals where we know there are associations between lead and. Health impacts, especially for children, cognitive, um, health impacts, intellectual, all that. So it, it, it, it has you think a little bit that even though policy was done, let's say in terms of lead, right, like we have lead free gasoline, no more lead and paint and whatnot.

[00:19:20] Why is it that people are still not aware of the health impacts of lead? And in fact, there's a lot of research that shows that lead is still being used in some children products. 

[00:19:32] Caroline Barakat, PhD: Colored chalk toys. And so it goes back to that consumer, you know, responsibility, who takes the responsibility for ensuring that there are no parabens, no lead, no phthalates, at least none of those chemicals.

[00:19:47] Where we know that there's a lot of evidence that points to their health impacts. 

[00:19:53] Caroline Barakat, PhD: Parabens were banned in Europe. Mm-hmm. But not in Canada and North America. So you tend to see like, well, where are we? And when are we going to take responsibility within policy to let the people know or not allow it on the shelves?

[00:20:10] Caroline Barakat, PhD: So it's a little bit for me. Not a happy moment for me to go towards the consumer and say like, we want you to know about these things. We want you to question, we want you to ask. We want you to impact those commercial determinants of health because this is what they are. They're commercial determinants of health.

[00:20:28] If you stop buying those products, it might impact the industry, but we do it. That someone should be protecting the health of populations. And so when is it going to be? Um. Enough for, for people to not have to worry about what they're buying on the shelf. 

[00:20:49] Caroline Barakat, PhD: So Adriana's word clearly showed that women, whether it's in personal conversations or through the questionnaires, tend to feel that if it's being sold, it's safe.. 

[00:21:00] Caroline Barakat, PhD And that's the ongoing, you know, uh, presumption. Within consumers, if it's on the shelf, someone knows what they're doing. It is safe. Whereas the reality we know is not as such and so, mm-hmm. Individuals take a role in protecting their health because of this gap. In policy and in in, uh, um, making sure that people are protected from, uh, fragrances cent and all that. 

[00:21:35] Caroline Barakat, PhD: mm Fragrance or scents and products. It can be, it can be in products as well. It can be in products that tell you that it's green. Um, it could be in products that say that it's safe, but, um. It could be either labeled, mislabeled, labeled wrong, greenwashed.

[00:21:52] And so, you know, there's, it takes a specialist to know what's in them. The, the issue is maybe baby steps, little pieces will help protect those individuals. 

[00:22:04] Aaron Goodman: Thank you so much. And Adriana, in your, uh, dialogue with, with women mm-hmm. Did you share the same level of surprise about, um. Was there an overwhelming lack of awareness about the, the existence of these chemicals in consumer products and, and how about fragrance?

[00:22:24] If we could put that in the mix. Were the women you met aware of the risks of fragrance? 

[00:22:31] Adriana Trifunovski: Yeah. So, um, it was kind of interesting because even though I was the researcher distributing this questionnaire, I actually kind of came, became sort of a participant too. 'cause as a woman I was, I'm, I was very shocked.

[00:22:43] I use these products every day, but using it for years, we're taught to use these products to, uh, like a social kind of construct. Mm-hmm. And you do think it's safe. And I was one of them. And it's like, who am I to know any better than these participants? Because I'm also learning through this. Project. Hmm.

[00:23:00] Um, and so yes, I was sharing my level of surprise with them as well and we were kind of having these moments and conversations 'cause it was like a 10-hour event. 

[00:23:12] Aaron Goodman: Mm-hmm. That's so interesting. Lot of women. 

[00:23:14] Adriana Trifunovski: Yeah. 

[00:23:15] Aaron Goodman: That's so interesting. So through this research were you learning about the harms of chemicals you're saying and, and fragrance?

[00:23:22] And did that lead you to make any different choices? 

[00:23:26] Adriana Trifunovski: Yes, big time. Um, and I think with proper education and as we've seen in the, um, in the questionnaire and the results with proper knowledge, you actually are more inclined to make a change. And I experienced that in myself. And regarding fragrances at the time of the data collection and these conversations, I didn't know too much about fragrances, but a lot of women were saying that they had skin reactions.

[00:23:52] And they had, they couldn't take certain scents. It was overwhelming.  

[00:23:57] Adriana Trifunovski: Um, they, it was, it was giving them skin burns or they, they had to give up products that they loved because of it and they weren't sure, and this was kind of pushing them to make a change. And then once they heard about, um, it was kind of displayed and demonstrated in the results.

[00:24:11] Adriana Trifunovski: If they had more knowledge of these chemicals and more resources, they were. More inclined to make a behavior change. Mm. And that fragrance piece, the reactions that we are actually writing a manuscript now with qualitative interviews that we had. 

[00:24:27] Adriana Trifunovski: Um, well that was part of the project.

[00:24:30] Adriana Trifunovski: Uh, it was a big factor there as well. A lot of participants had, um, they referred to as fragrance sensitivities. 

[00:24:39] Aaron Goodman: You mentioned that you spoke to someone who say they have MCS, multiple chemical sensitivity. Um, I suppose they have a, an awareness of the harms of, of fragrance and chemicals. And what role do people with MCS play in this education piece, perhaps?

[00:24:57] Adriana Trifunovski: Yeah, so in our questionnaire we did have a question that if they were, had a self-diagnosis of MCS or someone that they know in their household. So that was kind of combined into one question mm-hmm. To which we found about 10% of participants said yes to this. Mm-hmm. So, which was actually quite larger than previous literature that asks sort of, sort of the same sort of similar question. 

[00:25:23] Adriana Trifunovski: And so I think they do like play a piece in when they have a reaction and they're either spreading this information to people around them 

[00:25:32] Adriana Trifunovski: Or they themselves are, um, avoiding. These, uh, chemicals altogether in, um, personal care and household products. 

[00:25:42] Aaron Goodman: Knowing what, you know, professor Barett about the, the toxins and the harms, the chemicals in fragrance when it comes to labeling, do you happen to have a recommendation?

[00:25:53] Should we be looking for. Unscented, uh, fragrance free. I mean, personally I look for with, without the term the word fragrance or power firm, and I share that with others. But do you have any suggestions about what we can look for? 

[00:26:12] Caroline Barakat, PhD: Absolutely. Good Start cent free. Perfu free. Fragrance free. Phthalate free, because that's basically what, and these are, these are, this is a good start.

[00:26:22] Um, as a general rule, I do not like anything that would introduce those, um, sense or like it tells you like, so to sort of like, um. Um, mask, descent, any of those plugins, all that into my household. No candles, no candles, non-scented candles, all that ventilation. Is the best way to go. That's generally what it is.

[00:26:53] In terms of other products that we need to use, what you are mentioning in terms of spend free, value free, fragrance free, no, no. Or all these will help. I think it needs to be taken one step further within policy. Mm-hmm. Where, mm-hmm. You know. Products before they're put on the market needs to be checked.

[00:27:14] And there would be like a certified volume that would say that these are in fact products that can be used for people that have those multiple chemical sensitivities. Mm-hmm. Or sensitivities to them. 

[00:27:26] Aaron Goodman: Uh, question for both of you. Perhaps people with multiple chemical sensitivity have a lot of knowledge, a a about the harms of these chemicals.

[00:27:34] Do you see that people with MCS as having a role in terms of the education or the advocacy? 

[00:27:43] Adriana Trifunovski: Yeah, it's definitely different. It's, I did it come up in our data? Um, they were more. Inclined to, um, buy or avoid lead specifically in, uh, personal care and household products, which is the most, which was actually the most popular, popular, but the most, uh, well-known chemical in our study.

[00:28:04] Adriana Trifunovski: And so I do think that. They have a role to play and they can spread information, they can advocate mm-hmm. Uh, these concepts and these chemicals, and I think it does rub off eventually on, on people around them. Hmm. Um, they're seeing the effects that they're going through in MCS is now becoming a more recognized, um, I know there's a lot of.

[00:28:30] Uh, controversy before, but now with through the work of many different organizations, um, and ASEC is becoming, uh, more, uh, known and the women, I wish I can go back in time and tell those women that were telling me their symptoms and that I could say, you know, you should go and, and get this, um, checked out.

[00:28:51] You might have the MCS and educate them on this condition. Um, and I do think they definitely have. Uh, a role and they're definitely very big advocates. 

[00:29:01] Caroline Barakat, PhD: Mm-hmm. So I, I think personal experiences and lived experiences are so powerful. 

[00:29:06] Caroline Barakat, PhD: It's, it's through those lived experiences that people can make, uh, difference and advocate for the rights and the rights to people that have these conditions.

[00:29:16] Because at the end of the day, everybody needs to be able to. Places that are spent free and chemical free and they're, you know, welcomed in there. Mm-hmm. My role as a researcher is a little bit more than that. Mm-hmm. When I think about it, I think more that those individuals are indicators, potentially they're letting you know that those chemicals are.

[00:29:37] In fact, physically impacting their health. It's a physical implication on their health impact, on their health, whereas maybe the tolerance level, we all know when science, there's that tolerance level, there's this threshold, right? 

[00:29:51] Caroline Barakat, PhD: It may be that they haven't met that tolerance yet, right? And it may that one day they just get sensitized to it and they're going to get sick as well.

[00:30:01] Caroline Barakat, PhD: I’m person who had no allergies, nothing when I was young. And in my late twenties, I suddenly developed all sorts of seasonal allergies, ragweed, allergies, grass, pine, everything. Mm-hmm. And I think it's the same. So when we think about environmental health, we think about those allergy in these things.

[00:30:21] Like maybe people are not sensitized to it. Mm-hmm. But it's that exposure as it increases that might cause an impact. Mm-hmm. And why should we wait and not protect the health of individuals? Not until, you know, the prevalence of MCS becomes really, really high. It has been increasing. But then that's a sign that we need to do something about it early on.

[00:30:47] I mean, we know of the health impacts of toxic. Chemicals or toxins within chemical products. Um, and so let's do something around, yeah, that's important and, and yes, you do listen to the lived experiences so that it can have a bigger impact on policy and on, you know, industry and, and everybody that's a stakeholder in this.

[00:31:11] Aaron Goodman: Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned the, talked about sensitization because it's a term that comes up again, again in these conversations and I, um, it's helpful I think for me to understand it more. We just have a couple minutes remaining. Um, the lack of awareness is still, is still a critical issue and people with MCS encounter this.

[00:31:36] Every day. You know, people who just aren't aware of the impacts of the, of the consumer products that they use on others, that's discouraging. But do you have any hope that the awareness is going to change and people, you know, people, consumers, will start to understand the impacts on themselves and others?

[00:31:58] Adriana Trifunovski: I do have hope. Uh, I know a lot of, excuse me, women in my age group are, um. Advocating and kind of taking steps to learn. And I know Dr. Berka actually had a student that worked on a toolkit for parabens. And um, the results of that was, I think they're still publishing. If we have more education on this, have more toolkits, have more advocacy and awareness.

[00:32:23] I do think, because, you know, why did. It's kind of promising to see paraben free on a product or phthalate free because it's like, oh, are they listening? So there has to be a shift in the market. 

[00:32:35] Adriana Trifunovski: And I think it does fall in the consumers and women who are buying it. Um, unfortunately because we can, I think we have the weight and we have the power to kind of change and shift our product choices and our behavior.

[00:32:50] Aaron Goodman: Great. 

[00:32:52] Adriana Trifunovski: So yes, I have hope. 

[00:32:54] Caroline Barakat, PhD: I have hope. I'm an optimistic person by nature. I think we need to keep going in terms of increasing the knowledge and awareness of, um, the impacts or potential impacts of personal care products and those chemicals that are in them, uh, to protect people that already have diagnosis, like multiple chemical sensitivities, but as well the general public.

[00:33:16] Aaron Goodman: You've been listening to The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. I'm the host and podcast creator, Aaron Goodman. The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast is by and for the MCS community. The podcast is generously supported by the Marilyn Brockman Hoffman Foundation and listeners like you. If you wish to support the podcast, please visit Listen dot Chemical Sensitivity Podcast.

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[00:34:06] Your doctor, employer, even family and friends. Listen dot chemical sensitivity podcast.org. To learn more about the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast, follow the podcast on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, blue Sky, and TikTok. And as always, you can reach me at aaron@chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org. Thanks for listening.

[00:34:31] The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast and its associated website are the work of Aaron Goodman made possible with funds from the Marilyn Brockman Hoffman Foundation, supporting efforts to educate and inform physicians, scientists, and the public about multiple chemical sensitivity. The content opinions, finding statements and recommendations expressed in this chemical sensitivity podcast and associated website do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of its sponsors.