[00:00:00] Aaron Goodman: You are listening to the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. I'm the podcast creator Aaron Goodman. Today's episode focuses on brain fog. It's something many people with multiple chemical sensitivity where MCS live with every day, and it's something I've experienced for years during reactions, difficulty thinking, finding words, keeping my mind clear.

I wanted to better understand what's happening and to speak with researchers who specialize in it. So I'm speaking with Dr. Tara Packham and Rona Das about the research on brain fog, what it is, how it shows up in daily life, and how it's being measured in people living with chronic symptoms. And while brain fog isn't unique to MCS, understanding, it can be incredibly helpful for anyone dealing with it.

We discuss what brain fog actually means, how it affects attention. Memory and word finding how it differs from [00:01:00] fatigue or depression, and what clinicians often misunderstand. We also explore what the research shows, how common brain fog is, how it impacts quality of life, what may help and what needs to change in care.

Tara Packham is an occupational therapist and associate professor at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, and her research focuses on improving evaluation and treatment for people with complex pain syndromes. Ronessa Dass is a rehabilitation sciences and occupational therapy researcher also at McMaster University, focused on improving access to pain care with research supported by the chronic pain center of excellence for Canadian veterans.

Thanks so much for listening to The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. Some exciting news. Please check out and share the podcast new webpage. It's listen.chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org. And please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And follow the [00:02:00] podcast on YouTube, Facebook X, Instagram Blue bluesky and TikTok.

And as always, you can reach me at aaron@chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org.

Well, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. Would you like to briefly introduce yourself for folks? 

Ronessa Dass: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, first I just wanna say thanks so much for having us here today, Aaron. I'm super excited. So my name is Ronessa. I'm a joint PhD in rehab sciences and occupational therapy student at McMaster University, and I'm supervised by this lovely lady here, Tara Packham.

[00:02:39] Aaron Goodman: Fantastic. And before Tara, Ronessa, what draws you to explore brain fog? 

Ronessa Dass: Yeah, that's a great question. So I first got interested in pain and cognition because of my mom. She was injured in a car accident and she had since been experiencing pain. [00:03:00] And throughout our family, we kind of noticed that she was having challenges with her cognitive function, but we weren't really sure why that was happening.

And there wasn't a lot of. Information in the literature, but I was also pretty young at the time, so I didn't really know how to explore the literature at that point. But that drew me to doing an undergraduate degree in cognitive science where I learned a little bit more. And during my undergrad is actually when I reached out to Tara and we had done the scope interview on the topic.

[00:03:25] And then since then, um, we have just been learning more and more and have realized how impactful it is to other people, not just with pain, but in other groups. Have just been really excited on this journey and thinking about understanding the impacts and thinking about how we can support people. Well, thank you so much.

[00:03:41] Aaron Goodman: And Tara. 

Tara Packham: Thanks. So I'm Tara Packham. I'm an associate professor in the School of Rehabilitation Science at McMaster University. But my background is working as a clinical occupational therapist in people with hand and upper limb injuries and. I got interested in chronic [00:04:00] pain in that sphere, particularly something called complex regional pain syndrome, which is considered rare, but very impactful condition.

And so it was really driving to understand and unpack the complexities. Um. Of that, and certainly brain fog was a feature that people talked about being disabling in addition to the other physical disability impacts that they might have had related to their, their original injury and this pain syndrome.

And so when Ronessa approached me about this, I felt like I didn't know a lot from a scientist's point of view. I knew from a clinician's point of view that I had seen this in the people that I worked with. But didn't really understand it from a science point of view. And so I have been really happy to take this journey with Ronessa, building the evidence and really trying to understand what, what's happening with brain fog.

[00:04:57] Aaron Goodman:  And when it comes to understanding what's [00:05:00] happening with brain fog, before we started to record, we were talking about you are not specialists in MCS in multiple chemical sensitivity. And I was sharing with you that that's in fact that's very welcome. Why did you agree to come and on the podcast and speak with me knowing that it's the MCS podcast?

[00:05:18] Ronessa Dass: Yeah, that's a great question. So I think there's a few reasons for it, and one is just any opportunity to raise awareness and you know, to help people understand that this is something that there's actually some science behind it. That it's not just like a personal failure or something like that. We welcome any opportunity for that and love to raise awareness in any way that we can.

Hmm. And then the other thing, which is Tara kind of mentioned, she'll probably talk about when she answers is that. Yes, there might be differences in what causes it across these different populations, whether it's MCS or pain. But as Tara mentioned, it's a lot of the times the functional impacts are very similar and perhaps might even, management strategies might also be similar, but also it might not be [00:05:59] that [00:06:00] dissimilar in that with MCS, there are biological changes that actually might be similar to some of the changes that are happening with pain, especially if we look at things like the immune theory of pain or even the hormonal changes that might happen in pain. And of course that depends on what kind of pain you have.

And maybe I'll let Tara talk a little bit more about MCAS. 

Tara Packham: Yeah, thanks. So I definitely became aware and interested around MCAS as I studied complex regional pain syndrome, which was an area of interest for me. In fact, it was studying that, that brought me back to grad school and kind of set me on this journey, but really trying to appreciate that.

There are so many disparate symptoms that all contribute and link together. And often people have been afraid sometimes to share that even with their healthcare team because they feel like they're gonna be gaslit. 'cause it doesn't even make sense to them. [00:07:00] They know what's happening to them in their bodies, but it doesn't even necessarily make sense to them.

And you know, when they've asked. Why they maybe haven't gotten a positive response. And so I think that's, to me, one of the motivations for education and mobilizing knowledge to the public is that really understanding that there's this complexity that is often linked around sensitivities and that, you know, the responses in our body rela, you know, causes changes in our emotions and that.

In turn creates different responses in our body and when the systems, um, are really sensitive and, and so respond differently to stimuli coming in to the body from our environment and when we even change how we interact with our environment based on how we're feeling, right? Because it's our interactions that [00:08:00] introduce the outside environment into the internal environment of our body. That's really, I think, an area that people don't fully understand and don't always appreciate. And so when our activities change, how we interact with our environment changes, and then that changes our experience. And so really helping people to think about the idea that what we do actually is powerful.

[00:08:28] And so we want to think about not only the impacts of conditions on what we do, whether that's MCS or MCAS or chronic pain. But it's also that what we do also gives us an opportunity to control how we interact with our environments. Mm-hmm. And just picking up on something you, you mentioned Tara. Um. A personal failure.

Aaron Goodman: You know, I just want to share that I've had brain fog since my youth. I was often shamed about it, shamed in my family, [00:09:00] and I didn't know how to articulate what was going on with me. And I, I still sometimes feel like it's a personal failure was something unique. Perhaps Ronessa, about brain fog can lead people to feel that those uncomfortable feelings.

[00:09:18] Ronessa: Yeah, that's a great question. So I think some of the changes that are associated with Brain Fog or some of the impacts that people might experience are things like. Word finding in a conversation or mm-hmm. They're, you know, remembering things at a grocery store. It's paying attention in a conversation.

So it's things that often they usually come quite quickly to us. Mm-hmm. And they're usually quite natural. So when we're unable to do them, I think that we start to feel less confident because we sometimes take those things for granted. And then the other thing I think is that, you know, like even today, I'll probably have some instances where I forget my words or.

Sometimes it also happens if I'm not paying attention enough. So then people confuse that as well as if, [00:10:00] oh, you just weren't paying attention to the conversation. So people think that maybe if they're doing a little bit more or if they tried a bit harder that it would come and they don't really realize that it can be linked.

To these other things that are happening in their body or even in their environment. So sometimes people also experience brain fog more because there's just so many distractions happening. Mm-hmm. It's also related to things like how much pain they're in, how much sleep they've had the night before.

Mm-hmm. And there's just so much going on that I'm not sure if people are making these links. And then if you're not making those links, then sometimes you just blame the thing that's most constant, which is yourself. Yeah. And for people like, you know, who have MCS, it could, it could be the fragrance or a chemical that we're exposed to and other people don't, who don't have MCS won't necessarily have the same reaction.

[00:10:46] Aaron Goodman: So we're we're made to feel othered a lot of the time. Tara, I see nodding.

[00:10:55] Tara Packham: Yeah, I, I just was thinking of, I, I can't [00:11:00] say that I have MCAS, but I have experienced increased awareness and sensitivity to stimuli as somebody who gets migraines. Um, and so, you know, where my sense of smell is incredibly magnified and how that impacts, but it's not a visible thing. People can't tell that from looking at you, and I think it's.

Invisible disabilities often carry a lot of stigma because others don't understand, um, what's going on and whether that's from the pain of migraine to chronic pain from a motor vehicle accident or. Something else. You know? And I think there's a multitude of different health conditions that really this, this is a part of, and that we're hearing more and more, you know, long COVID mm-hmm.

[00:11:49]  Aaron Goodman: Chemo fog. Mm-hmm. You know, the sensitivity related to chemotherapy induced. So, so much. Yes. And on that point, Tara, do you think it's helpful for [00:12:00] people when you share that information to learn or to confirm that people, all kinds of people with all kinds of conditions, experience brain fog, is, that's actually something I didn't know.

[00:12:13] Tara Packham: It may seem evident, but it, it's kind of an aha moment for me. I, I didn't know that. Uh, of course people do, but what does that do to, what can that do to people when they. Perhaps learn that or hear that. Well, I, I feel like when we normalize the challenges, right, and I mean, there's been lots of conversations about normalizing discussions on depression or mental health because when we put it out there, it gives people the opportunity to, to learn and to actually adapt and be sensitive.

So. You know, as an instructor in the classroom, one of the things I ask is, you know, I ask the classroom, is there anybody that needs the lights dimmed a little bit more, you know, that you're gonna be a, in a better place to learn if I don't [00:13:00] have a full deck of fluorescent lights on. Mm-hmm. That's just a simple thing and yet it can be really impactful.

Sure. Yeah. And on, you know, when it comes to fragrance too, reminding people to, to do that, because if people have brain fog. It's going to impact them in the classroom. 

Aaron Goodman: Right. I see you again nodding, Ronessa.

[00:13:20] Ronessa: It's only a real thing because scientists are stu studying it, but I think that having the fact that it's coming from, you know, that there is some science behind it and that there is some work behind it, also helps people to feel a little bit more legitimized and validated in their experiences and that it's not just something that's, you know, from their peers.

[00:13: Um, yeah, and I think that both of those are valid. But sometimes there's still, because of that stigma piece, having it come from a bit more of beneficial source can be helpful. Yeah, I, I agree with you and I also have mixed feelings, a around that, that perhaps some of the re reservations that you articulated.

Aaron Goodman: Before I invite you to talk perhaps a little bit about [00:14:00] what is, what is the science, what do you know about the science of brain fog? Um, how much science is there? You mentioned, uh, Tara, that Ronessa has kind of pioneered this research or taken on this, this research, and it didn't sound like a lot of other people are doing it.

[00:14:17] Ronessa: When I began to look for research on brain fog, I didn't find a lot kudos to you for doing this, but how much research is happening around brain fog? Yeah, I think there's. Not as much as we would like, but I think people are doing some work and it's in different fields. So there's, before we got started, there was tons on fibro fog that we were able to leverage.

Um, but it was a lot more qualitative studies and it was describing the impacts. Yeah. Did you say, are you referring to fibromyalgia? Yes. And I see, okay. Also with long COVID, there was a lot or different types of studies being done as well. But I think there's still a lot of gaps in, or some of the limitations to these studies.

[00:15:00] Oftentimes, one of the limitations is that there isn't really a way to assess it, and then if there is no validated assessments, then it makes it harder to draw conclusions. Mm-hmm. Um, so that's one of the things that we're actually working on as well. But I think more and more I'm seeing more studies come out, so that makes us feel very optimistic.

And I think, um, also more collaboration amongst people who are working on this is needed. And that's another thing that we're working towards in one of our Delphi studies right now. 

Aaron Goodman: And when you say one of the things you're working on, um, are you working on ways to measure it? Yes. We are working on a framework right now which outlines the different components of it.

Ronessa: We’re hoping that it can be used as an advocacy tool, but also as a tool for healthcare providers to kind of understand what are the different components on it and help people set goals using that tool. And then the other tool that we're working on right now is an assessment tool. So it'll be actually, hopefully be able to.

Aaron Goodman: Measure people's experiences with that. That's really interesting. And I can imagine it could be very complex figuring out how to, [00:16:00] how to measure brain fog. 'cause it's intangible, it's invisible. So could it be something like a pain scale from one to 10? How will it roughly look like? 

Ronessa Dass: Right now we're designing it as a self-report questionnaire because that way it's something that can be very feasibly applied in a number of different settings.

But we're, it is, it's definitely tricky where we just started off with it right now and there's a lot to consider. Mm-hmm. Because it's shaped by so many things, but it also influences a lot of different things. But I'm optimistic that with a bit of work we can produce something that's, yeah. That'll be helpful.

[00:16:36] Aaron Goodman: And I think it's, it sounds really challenging and important, and also like MCS and many other invisible illnesses. There's no, there isn't a biomarker test right now for MCS, but we know that something like that could be so valuable. Do you feel like that could be beneficial if there were a test self? [00:16:53]  There is self-reporting tests for MCS, but not a biomarker, so would self-reporting be helpful? 

[00:17:00] Ronessa: I think self-reporting would be helpful. I, yeah, they're self-reporting. Sometimes they get a bit of a bad rep, but I, I do think that they're helpful, especially if you're thinking about. What are people's experiences in helping to validate those experiences? [00:17:17] I think I'm a fan of self-report tools. Tara, what do you think? Tara's a, a measurement expert? 

Tara Packham: Well, I'm a big fan of self-report tools and we know that they don't align perfectly with what are considered more objective measures. So measures of impairment that we, where we can directly measure something.

But there are so many things that we can't directly measure and so many times that, that there are. When a person makes a decision, they make a rating or a judgment on a self-report tool, they're considering so many things mm-hmm. Um, that go into that rating and that's why it's hard to make a good one.

But by the same token, it allows us to really, I. Tap into those things [00:18:00] that might be really hard to pull out. 'cause maybe, you know, a blood test is only telling us one aspect and it's not telling us everything, you know, if someone's reporting their fatigue. Right. Um, I think we can think about fatigue as being, you know, an ener, an energy deficit, right?

So it might be related to nutrition and so blood tests might tell me about their nutrition status and. I could do maybe a breathing test and, and look at, you know, efficiency of oxygenation and that would tell me something about that. But it's not telling me about the impact of what it feels like to be fatigued and the frustration of not being able to do everything that I want to do with the people that are meaningful to me.

Hmm. And, and that's what a self-report questionnaire can bring. And so I think, you know, yes, we want to have, uh, the best evidence and, and. Looking at different ways of measuring, but to think that [00:19:00] only one way of measuring is, mm-hmm. Gonna tell us everything is a fool's errand. 

Aaron Goodman: What kind of stories do people often share about the impacts of brain fog, and why are these stories important?

I think the stories that people tell us are really important because not only is it an opportunity for them to be heard, but we as scientists, when we listen to that, also learn about a condition, right? If we are careful and thoughtful in how we listen, there is often truths in their stories that. That can give us hypotheses, right?

That actually can help us to generate new understandings. And that can help us to really dig into to areas that are important. And I, I'm gonna prompt Ronessa to talk about, um, you know, when she was listening to the stories in one of her previous studies, um, hearing the accounts of women, [00:20:00] um, were different than the accounts of men.

[00:20:02] Ronessa: And that's actually a really important thing. And so I'll, I'll let her describe that. Yeah, that, yeah. That was a really interesting finding. So basically in our study we saw that. The way that women and men were describing their experiences with managing brain fog were different. Women had described having a bit more of restraint on their identity as well as difficulty with management because they were unable to do some of the things like household responsibilities, balancing that with childcare, house care and work.

And what was interesting is that Menner study described offloading a lot of those tasks to their women's spouses, but women didn't really have that capacity. 'cause often if you look at things through a traditional gender. Norm's role or lens. Um, women are often the people in the household who take on those organizational roles and they're kind of taking care of everyone.

So sometimes they neglect to take care of themselves as well. So that was a really interesting finding. And [00:21:00] then just on the note of. Stories as well. There was also the impacts on families. So people describe having strained relationships with their spouses because their spouses might have had to take on additional caregiving responsibilities or different additional responsibilities around the house.

So sometimes that could strain relationships as well as with their children. Sometimes people felt they really felt like it was a failure as a parent because their children had to take on more roles and more responsibilities that they really didn't wanna offload to them, but. That was just kind of the changes in their family dynamics and that's something that came out.

And then with work as well. So they talk about how they would leverage all of their, or like pull together all of their cognitive resources to do a good job at work because that's how you live and that's how you make a living to feed your family. But then you come home and then you're so exhausted and that's really when you feel the brain fog and then you don't have time to be there with your family.

So we saw a lot of that as well in terms of how it impact. So many different areas of [00:22:00] people's lives that really wasn't, or we didn't really see that in the literature before we started to dive in and listen to those stories. And it actually, at first wasn't even a question that we had in our original interview guide, but it just came out so strongly.

[00:22:14] Aaron Goodman: And what do you make of the, the term brain fog? Do you think this is a, a good. Descriptor or are there any others that you like or advocate for that can effectively communicate to others, whether it's our inner, our families, or with clinicians? Mm-hmm. Yes. I'm chuckling at that because 

Ronessa Dass: I’ve actually had a few participants who have said that [00:22:37] Maybe if we give it a more complex name, then maybe people will take it more seriously. I've actually thought about that sometimes when we're writing grants, like, should I call this something else to make it more compelling to people? But I think what's really powerful about the term is that it's really something that was derived through people with lived experiences.

And this is a term that came up through these discussions. So that's the term that we went with, and [00:23:00] that's, um, because it, it gave us an opportunity to do patient driven research. So I haven't really thought about changing it. Um, from that, except for in the cases, um, like what that participant was describing.

[00:23:11] Aaron Goodman: Perhaps would you like to talk a little bit about what's going on inside the brain and the body? Brain fog, um, come is, it manifests for many different reasons, but is there one underlying cause or does it cause by many different things? Uh, I wouldn't say that there's one underlying cause. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:29] Ronessa Dass: Oftentimes participants have told us it can be really hard to figure out what it is because it's often triggered by so many things. So we do have a model that is available right now, but it outlines three different factors that might be causing in pain. So we have environmental. So are there stressors happening?

You know, are there distractions? There's more biological. So sometimes when you're in so much pain, that takes up a lot of signaling. So then, and attentional resources, which leaves less room for other cognitive functions. There's also things like inflammation and chronic [00:24:00] stressors in the body, as well as things like sleep.

And then what's also interesting about brain fog is that some of these, or that. Brain fog can actually reinforce some of these triggers. So for example, people had told us that brain fog happens a lot more when they're feeling depressed or they're feeling anxious, but also when they feel brain fog, then they start to feel more depressed and anxious.

[00:24:21] Tara Packham: So then they start to feel more brain fog, and then it can just create these very difficult cycles. I think the, the thing I was reflecting on, um, even as I was preparing for this today, was also the, the other. Challenge is, I think, when we start to change our behaviors, right? Mm-hmm. And, and that includes how we move around in our environment because we're trying to steer away from what we think might be the source of the smell, potentially in something like MCS, um, or we're trying to regulate our breathing 'cause we know we're feeling anxious, right?

In response [00:25:00] to. A change in the environment or what we're doing, or, you know, we're trying to focus in on what, what it is. You know, we're, we're managing or navigating. And I think when people have physical pain, um, they also move differently. And when we, when we move differently mm-hmm. And it's not, we're not moving naturally.

We're not using the normal pre-programmed motor plans in our brain. Mm-hmm. Um. When we're doing something different or new or stressful mm-hmm. It engages, uh, our, our behavior is being driven by different patterns in our brain and not those automated ones. So it actually takes more conscious attention.

And so that drains us further. But it also actually, our muscles also contract less efficiently. So we have a motor, a cost of muscle energy of up to [00:26:00] 30% is what some of the kinesiology literature would say, is it takes about 30% more energy to do something that's not familiar, that's not based on those kind of pre-programmed things.

And I think that's happening subtly. A lot when people are trying to do something new. It's an unfamiliar situation, or they're reacting. And so they're having to concentrate and focus their attention on those things. And so it's a combination of physical and emotional and cognitive, right. It really is this interaction of all of those things that are happening at the same time.

I think that's a really an underappreciated aspect. It's not just, oh, you're sensitive to the smell. It, it's actually, yep. Because you're sensitive, you're, you start to think about, oh, what do I need to do to get away from that? How can I manage that? Of course. How can I focus on [00:27:00] that? Right? So it's driving these responses not only in our thoughts, in our emotions, but even in, in our muscles and in our bodies about how we're moving and engaging with the environment.

And I think that's. It's something that we need to, again, as someone living with it, you need to give yourself grace around that. Right. To appreciate that. That's gonna be exhausting. That's, mm-hmm. That's, it feels exhausting. And then, you know, you mentioned the brain. The body is activated and has to work harder.

[00:27:32] So when we're in the brain fog period, the brain is, is working double time, triple time to do the same things that we're normally able to do. 

Aaron Goodman: What do people with lived experience of brain fog tell you about their communication with clinicians and healthcare workers when it comes to brain fog? Do they feel that that clinic clinicians are receptive or understanding or empathetic, have suggestions for management or are they dismissed?[00:28:00] 

[00:28:00] Ronessa Dass: So I think that really depends on people's relationships with their healthcare providers, and then those relationships depends on other things, but I'll just. Say a few things from some of our studies. So we did a study where we looked at social media postings and seeing how brain fogs talked about in social media.

Mm-hmm. And through that study we saw that a lot of those participants were coming to social media because they didn't feel like they could go to their healthcare providers. And it might be that they were too scared to even have that conversation in the first place, or might be because they went to their healthcare provider and they were dismissed or they weren't taken seriously.

Whether it's. Because it was their age. So they thought that you were too young to be experiencing some of these things, or it's because they were a bit older and they were told, oh, that's a part of the normal kind of aging process. So there's that. And then some of the participants aren't even connected to healthcare professionals, like they don't have a family doctor.

So they don't have anyone that they can talk to about these. And then there are some who have good relationships with [00:29:00] healthcare professionals who are continuing to learn and who are actually reaching out to us as well to see what our findings are. And we've been able to connect with a few who have given us some great suggestions to use for clinical settings and some of the strategies that they've used.

[00:29:14] It really depends on the healthcare provider and also the relationships that individuals are able to build with their healthcare providers.

Aaron Goodman: I wonder if there are any tips you may have for folks who are listening about what they can say or. You know, if they're reluctant or unsure of what to say to people in their lives, including healthcare workers.

[00:29:33] Ronessa Dass: Yeah, that's right. So we actually have a tip sheet, and I can send that to you if you wanna use it when I'm posting. But we made an infographic specifically for healthcare workers where we explain what brain bug is, and then we also talk about a little bit what, how could it. It impacts specifically within a clinical setting.

[00:29:50]: So for example, people might forget to go to appointments. They might forget to take their medications or they might forget what they talked about in clinical settings. And then we also have some [00:30:00] suggestions on how they can help to support with that. So it can be reducing distractions, doing lights, like Tara actually said as we perhaps wrap up this conversation, which I've really enjoyed and thank you so much about management.

[00:30:13] Tarah Packham: The management piece. I give myself permission if possible, to move slower through my day. There are some supplements I take that are semi effective, but I wonder if you have any strategies for management or thoughts on management. Yeah, so the one that you recommended there, right there, which is giving yourself some compassion and taking breaks throughout the day.

That's one that we've heard from. Almost every person with lived experience and healthcare professional alike. And some of that goes back to the fact that brain fog can happen more when you're physically and mentally exhausted. So if you can take a break before you get up to that point of feeling, that can also help.

But also showing yourself some of that compassion because brain fog's also related to mental health and mental distress. So if you can [00:31:00] be able to kind of support yourself in that way, that could also be helpful. But also just continuing to find activities that can bring you joy. Some hobbies.

Participants thought was helpful and also goes back to that mental health piece using tools that help you to feel in control and feel organized, you know, and not everybody draws on those things the same way. And so it might, it might be that you use a notebook, or it might be that you use a notes feature on your phone, or it might be that you use voice recordings or you know, across the spectrum using things that help [00:31:36] serve as those reminders and build that into your data. Mm-hmm. That's, that's a sticky note on the fridge. Um, or whether that's an, an automated reminder on your phone to take or your smartwatch to take a break. There are lots of things out there that, that can be pretty simple, but that can be helpful.

[00:31:54] Ronessa Dass Yeah. And just one last thing. Yes. Sorry. Yeah, just one last thing [00:32:00] I think is also really helpful, and I think we talked about it a few times, is also. Communicating with your support systems, so your friends, colleagues, your family members, and just trying to have those conversations to help them understand a little bit about what's happening.

Because a lot of people might not know what brain fog is as well. Continuing to show everyone some compassion as well as the family and everyone around you learns together, so feel it's important to let people know what's happening. I think it can be helpful. Mm-hmm. Sometimes so that way you know, the children or your spouse don't think that it's something deliberate and that they have a better understanding.

[00:32:36] think once. Everybody understands it a little bit. Mm-hmm. Then helps them to be able to know how to support. Mm-hmm. I think that usually people are coming from the lens of wanting to help, but might not know how to, because that's, that's me talking optimistically. 

Aaron Goodman: And if anyone listening is interested in perhaps learning more or getting involved potentially in your research, is that a, is that welcome?

Ronessa Dass: Absolutely. [00:33:00] Yes. We'd love to hear differences in perspectives. 

Aaron Goodman: I’ll share this information in the show notes for listeners and viewers and a contact for you so people who are listening with MCS to share their experiences or find out more if they can get touch with you.

You've been listening to The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. I'm the host and podcast creator Aaron Goodman. The Chemical Sensitivity podcast is by and for the MCS community. The podcast is generously supported by the Marilyn Brachman Hoffman Foundation and listeners like you. If you wish to support the podcast, please visit listen.chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org.

Your support will help us continue making the podcast available and creating greater awareness about MCS. Please, please check out and share a link for the podcast new webpage, as I said, as I said, it's listen dot chemical sensitivity podcast.org. To learn more about the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast, follow the podcast on YouTube, [00:34:00] Facebook, Instagram, blue Sky and TikTok.

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