Aaron Goodman: [00:00:00] What happens when the products millions of people use every day, laundry detergents, fabric softeners, perfumes, and air fresheners, make it difficult for others to work, attend school, travel, or even remain in their own homes? And what can Japan's experience teach us about multiple chemical sensitivity and fragrance pollution?

[00:00:24] I've spoken with guests on the podcast about people's experiences with MCS in Japan, and I think it's important to take a closer look at the situation. One of my guests today says roughly 7.5% of the population in Japan lives with some degree of MCS, and many report that highly scented laundry products, including fabric softener, triggers their MCS symptoms.

[00:00:50] I wanted to find out more and what the rest of the world can learn about Japan's experience and perhaps take from it. On a visit to Tokyo recently, which for [00:01:00] folks with MCS can appreciate took a lot of planning to reduce potential exposures to chemicals, I sat down with three people to get their insights.

[00:01:09] Doctors, analyzed that secondhand smoke causes,, the risk of lung cancer . So the, legislature changed the idea to, ban, smoking in room or, in the face of the, ordinary people,

[00:01:24] so this become the, legislature that ban, open air smoking, like walking smoking . So, right now, we are, liberated from the, secondhand smoking. So I think this is, same situation. If people understand the, laundry product, flagrance or other, , toxic chemicals, should be banned basically in the, , public

[00:01:52] Keiko Fukaya is steering committee member of the Japan Consumers Association and [00:02:00] co-representative of Canary Network National, an organization that lobbies government and industry on behalf of people with MCS.

[00:02:08] Yuri Kitagawa is a member of the Japan Consumers Association's detergent subcommittee and the liaison group to eliminate fragrance pollution. And Professor Emeritus Roichi Terada is an environmental sociologist and representative committee member of Japan Consumers Association.

[00:02:28] I'm really grateful for their time and for helping to paint a clearer picture of the situation in Japan, which I'm excited to share with you. They describe how fragrance pollution has emerged as a major public health concern , where widespread use of highly fragranced laundry products has left many people with MCS struggling to participate in everyday life.

[00:02:51] Please check out and share a link to the podcast's new website. It's listen.chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org. [00:03:00] It's an easy way to introduce friends, family members, healthcare providers, researchers, policymakers, and others to conversations about MCS. And please subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:03:12] To learn more, follow the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast on YouTube, Facebook, X, Instagram, Blue Sky, and TikTok, and you can reach me at aaron@chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org. Thanks for listening

Keiko Fukaya: [00:03:41] My name is Keiko Fukaya, a co-representative of Canary Network Nationwide in Japan. The abbreviation is, CAN, C-A-N, CAN consists of people suffering from fragrance pollution and the supporters. CAN was [00:04:00] organized in 2021 and now the members amount to one thousand and fifty-seven. Most of the members are patients of Multiple Chemical Sensitivity.

[00:04:12] I'm also one of them. Our aim is to inform about the sufferings of fragrance pollution, to construct the network of the sufferers and the supporters, and to recover our infringed human rights.

Ryoichi Terada: [00:04:39] My name is Ryoichi Terada, professor emeritus of the, environmental sociology. I made some research in the United States, maybe, 30 years ago, in the mid 1990s, And, I became interested in environmental justice issues. There is sad thing, [00:05:00] uh, is that in the United States, toxic chemicals primarily, goes to, people of color community in general, and that there is a,, a symmetrical distribution of a, environmental burden among the, community people.

[00:05:18] I found the very important, measures to reduce this kind of, disproportionality. Many of you know the Love Canal incidents, Love Canal is located just in the border of Canada and the United States, where, , low-cost, residence area was built on the, abandoned, , toxic waste, dumping site, , containing a lot of dioxin.

[00:05:48] It was constructed in, the 1950s. And 1979, the dioxin was, discovered in the, , the soil. And then, , the residents, demanded the US EPA to, develop what they call now a Superfund, legislation to clean up the soil, the contaminated soil.

[00:05:59] As [00:06:00] well as that system, they, invented the, PRTR. UN and Japan, adopted, but in the United States it is called, Toxic Re-Release Inventory. In which, each, factory have to report what they are dumping, what they have been, emitting, among maybe, 300 or 400 items.

[00:06:24] And the, uh, information is disclosed among the citizens. So I found it very, useful system. And also, United Nation, decided to recommend OECD countries. Meaning, industrialized countries, around 30 countries at that time. And, Japan also adopted, in the year of 2001.

[00:06:54] So since then, we started, the operation to disseminate the [00:07:00] idea and also, disclose the information itself to, enhance public opinion against the, toxic waste, dumping site or toxic waste, pollution And then, we had a lot of meeting to disseminate this idea.

[00:07:20] And,I noticed there are some participant primarily, mid-raised ladies with thick mask and maybe, cap or hat. Most of them just standing, looking around in the, entrance. And I, uh, I thought that they are sort of  MCS patient. And then after the meeting, I asked.

[00:07:50] Then she told me "We are sufferers from chemicals. And, we used to have big, pollution [00:08:00] issues like Minamata disease and Itai disease from heavy metals. But, right now, she said, "the most serious patients or sufferers may be, people like us. We react many kinds of toxic chemicals, and I came here, but at risk of my life."

[00:08:24] It's not lie. Some people stopped, heart beating when she, for example inhale cigarette. Right, but society in general don't think about us. Even almost, very little information about, about multiple chemical, sensitivity issues.

[00:08:44] So that's when, I noticed the, the seriousness of the MCS issues. And of course, I became interested in the toxic chemical issues because, I myself is, sensitive. Not, uh, MCS [00:09:00] patient, but, I know I'm, very weak or sensitive to the pesticides or other chemicals. So I more easily, understand, their suffering or their agony or painfulness.

[00:09:14] So that's why I became interested in these issues. And as a, environmental sociologist, I'm concerned about the, social fairness, concerning these, MCS issues. Maybe I can, uh, talk a little bit more about that.

[00:09:32] Definitely.

Aaron Goodman: [00:09:37] I think people with MCS, always want to connect with researchers who have some lived experience, have expertise, and also have empathy. So it's wonderful to be connecting with you in this conversation with all of you. Thank you very much.[00:10:00] 

Yuri Kitagawa: [00:10:01] I'm Yuri Kitagawa. My connection to MCS, maybe I can say that this started when I was a child, 60 years ago. Those days, it was, a bit, I mean, in some toilets, especially public toilets in Japan, they placed air fresheners. Not the ones to spray, but the ones in sort of, um, transparent plastic bottles, the liquid, and that evaporated to kind of spread the smell in the toilet.

[00:10:37] And I couldn't stand that. But it was always possible to avoid that. But then later on, when the fragrance scented laundry products started coming out, maybe some 15 years ago, actually, I didn't know that the smell came from the laundry products. I started, being [00:11:00] disturbed by the smell. And then I even started getting sick when I was still working in the office.

[00:11:08] I mean, staying close to even not the person using the product. It was, my colleague was sitting in the next room to the person who was using the product. And I experienced a few times that, I couldn't move. I mean, I was sort of half, in a fainted status. So I'm now one of the members working in the Network for Fragrance Pollution, which consists of, five organizations, including Consumers Union of Japan, the Soap and Detergent Group.

Aaron Goodman: [00:11:50] Yuri, perhaps I could continue to ask in your day-to-day life now, what are some of your greatest [00:12:00] challenges when it comes to living with MCS?

Yuri Kitagawa: [00:12:07] Probably I'm not the ones, for example, that, you know, cannot, go out at all. But, uh, since, I'm retired now, I don't need, to go to the office, or to commute. Well, actually, I was commuting by bike which, made it possible for me to avoid the commute in public transportation. But, I do go,, for treatment, I mean, rehabilitation, and I go to my Tai Chi, class, so I do get, sort of exposed to those fragrance pollutions.

[00:12:44] But, because I choose to go to places where, there is less exposure, because at least the clinic I go to says something about,, being to watch out. And, the Tai Chi [00:13:00] session I go to is organized by a sort of holistic, clinic, so.. There are less people than normal. But for example, going to, concerts, live performances, or museums, I have second thoughts.

[00:13:17] I don't go to them unless I really want to. And I can't travel anymore in Japan because the hotels are contaminated the staff working there, but mainly,, the customers who stayed in the rooms before me. When you say contaminated, is it their laundry products that leave a residue?

[00:13:40] Yes, especially the mattresses, but the carpets, curtains, furniture, you know, all the fragrances and antimicrobial chemicals, are sort of, uh, spread from their clothes, and they stay in all these, and it's [00:14:00] not possible to remove.

Aaron Goodman:[00:14:09] Keiko-san, I want to ask you, could you please talk a little bit about, for international listeners, people who may be not familiar with the situation in Japan, what is this fragrance pollution like? How much of a serious issue is this? And perhaps for yourself, um, I know you had to take the train to this meeting, to this conversation.

Keiko Fukaya: [00:14:43] Since more than 90% of the population use synthetic detergents and fabric softeners in Japan, products with microcapsules have increased and our society is now full of people who wear clothes from underwear [00:15:00] to coats washed with these products. The air is now rife with chemicals, including fragrances and health damage...

[00:15:09] And health damage permits starting with those who have high sensitivity towards chemical substances. Japanese residential areas tend to be crowded, and in Japan, there is a habit to dry laundry outside in the sun so that it is easy to suffer damage from the neighbors. Also, more people use crowded public transport rather than drive their own cars.

Aaron Goodman: [00:15:40] How was it for you coming to this meeting today? What kind of challenges did it present for you coming on the train?

[00:15:50] I wear  hats and goggles and raincoats and, masks to prevent from [00:16:00] fragrances in the train. But, I get a little bit, exposed by the fragrance and I'm a little bit fainted.

[00:16:08] I saw, a TV documentary that the heavy MCS patient wear mask, which is used in the battlefield during the World War I with goggle and the thick, canister. And this is absolutely necessary for the heavily sick persons. But, if this person get on the train, the, passengers around her was frightened of what's happening . But this is absolutely necessary, she said.

[00:16:39] Actually, I interviewed that kind of person I think the smell itself is doesn't, caused any, difficulty, maybe 95% of people, 90% of people. However, for them, it's a life-threatening experience. [00:17:00] Like someone is, having knives or pistols, in a train.

[00:17:06] So, I think this is very, hard experience for a patient. Thank you.

Aaron Goodman: [00:17:12] Professor Terada, I'd like to ask a follow-up question about your research. In your work, you describe people with MCS having a double invisibility and experience social exclusion because of environmental factors and environmental illness.

[00:17:30] Could you talk a little bit more about those ideas? Um, how are people in Japan with MCS excluded from life, from society?

Ryoichi Terada: [00:17:47] I started interviewing, MCS patient, maybe, 15 years ago, a little bit, before the Fukushima, nuclear accident. What is the difficulty for you? [00:18:00] And many people asked, they don't know what kind of, , disease it is. And they go to a doctor, but many doctor don't know anything about MCS.

[00:18:15] So maybe, mm, psychological problem, mm, go to psychiatrist. So this is not true for them actually. So, it takes, maybe one year, several years, maybe some people took, more than 10 years to be diagnosed, as a MCS patient. So from the medical, factor, many doctors cannot diagnose correctly, what is MCS 'cause they didn't, have the, textbook on which, MCS are written, during the university days maybe.

[00:18:54] And so, it took a pretty long time. But finally, [00:19:00] in the year 2009, the, Ministry of Welfare admitted, this disease as a sort of a formal medical disease, MCS. And they have a, a registration of the name of the disease. And in 2009, MCS is on it. So, the doctor can diagnose. And, we have health insurance, and, health insurance can pay for the treatment of MCS after that. So this is, one of the, important moment at that time. However, even after that, the patients, like, Ms. [00:19:43] Kitagawa, Yuri-san told, told us, the patients themselves have very hard time to, get on the train or, walk along the, street because of the, smell or car exhaust gas, something [00:20:00] like that.

[00:20:01] Medically speaking, it is almost invisible, especially before 2009, not a formal, disease for doctors. But even after that, the patients have trouble to get along the society. The ordinary people have very little opportunity to see or, heard about the, difficulty, challenges they have.

Aaron Goodman: [00:20:32] Yuri-san, I know someone with MCS in Japan who's lived in her vehicle for many years. Is this situation common for people in Japan, um, among the people you know? How are they coping? 

Yuri Kitagawa: Well, it's very difficult to cope because even in one's home, because especially Japanese people, tend to extend their laundry outside in [00:21:00] their balcony and gardens, the air, contaminated with laundry products comes in, the house, the apartment, via the balcony or the garden.

[00:21:12] Or even if they have the windows closed, there are always vents and slits, and, the contaminated air comes in. So, that's something they suffer daily and for hours, and going out is very difficult. Some people do not manage at all. 

Aaron Goodman: And what kind of symptoms, may I ask if you want, do you experience and others experience as a result of exposure to these laundry chemicals?

Yuri Kitagawa: [00:21:44] The most common ones are headaches, nausea, eye ache, coughs, nose ache, and I especially suffer diarrhea- and stomach ache, and dizziness, [00:22:00] sort of, , feelings faint and so on. 

Aaron Goodman: And a lot of children are very affected, aren't they? A lot of children can't go to school. [00:22:12] Is that right? 

Yuri Kitagawa: Well, uh, as you can imagine, kids spend a long time in the classroom, which is very crowded, high population density. I find from, the families that live in the same apartment block, that, people with young children tend to use these fragranced laundry products more than average.

[00:22:38] And, the kids find it good, to use, uh, to be smelling, with these products. And, uh, some of the kids whose family have not using the products before, they ask their parents, I mean, uh, being sort of pointed out by, the classmates Uh, why you are not using the products? [00:23:00] You know, they ask, the mother normally, to use the product.

[00:23:04] And, unfortunately, one of, the, obstacle is that Japanese people tend to think that everything that, are sold in shops, the ads are aired, are safe and good. And, they think, if they are not good, the government would have done something about it. I mean, regulated the products. So often when, a friend or colleague says, you know, "I suffer from, MCS and, laundry products," they can't believe because their olfactory system, is not functioning anymore after heavy use, so they cannot sense the fragrance.

[00:23:47] As, as you may know, according to the survey in 2024, 10% of the students of elementary and junior high schools have suffered from fragrance [00:24:00] pollution in Japan. It is a serious condition. So in August 2025, the Network to Stop Fragrance Pollution and the Network of Assembly Members to Stop Fragrance Pollutions submitted the request for measures against fragrance pollution and chemical sensitivity in schools to the Ministry of Education.

[00:24:22] But the answer was there nothing. They said it was difficult to conduct a survey to formulate guidelines and add items to the health questionnaire because the pathology and mechanisms of occurrence were not clear. And they claimed it was important to give individual consideration according to the actual situation of each student.

[00:24:46] That is to say, the Ministry of Education means the students suffering from fragrance pollution would be treated by isolation from the classrooms with-- of which air is full of fragrance [00:25:00] or of volatile organic compounds. CAN we think we cannot ignore the situation. We must prepare clean air classrooms for all students to enable them to study, act, and play in a sound environment.

[00:25:17] Therefore, CAN is now conducting a signature petition calling for fragrance-free school to the Ministry of Education. Fortunately, we welcome the other organizations to cooperate with, such as environmental groups, MCS patients groups, and cooperatives. And the number of signature is increasing steadily so far.

[00:25:43] We hope this petition will succeed in affecting the ministry.

Aaron Goodman: [00:25:53] Professor Terada, um, you talked about some of the positive developments that, the government has [00:26:00] made MCS a listed illness, and doctors can diagnose, insurance companies can support people with the condition.

[00:26:07] But is it still a fact that the biological mechanism is relatively unknown by science, that there aren't biomarkers, as they say, yet? Is that part of the problem? Is that one of the factors that contributes to the stigma or the misdiagnosis, the mistreatment, in your view?

Ryoichi Terada: [00:26:32] Yes, basically the reasons the, material that caused MCS, has so many variation, maybe thousands or ten thousands, uh, chemical substances, is around ourselves. So it is very, hard work to, check each items and which causes MCS, which does not cause.

[00:26:59] Maybe [00:27:00] it will take, dozens of years, maybe more than 100 years. So it would be very difficult. It takes long time and it cost also, much money for the, public authority to, pursue that, purpose. As Yuri-san told us, each item that's sold in a supermarket, a drugstore, everywhere.

[00:27:23] So that means, among the, lay people, government checked them, government admitted them, to sell these stores. Maybe more than 90% of people, they are, not... They do not cause a physical problem. So, ordinary people tend , understand that, these people are too weak or, having some mental problems, something like that, not because of the, uh, toxicity of each, chemical items.

[00:27:57] So there's a, deep [00:28:00] misunderstanding between the sufferers and, ordinary, people. That made this program, difficult. So for example, in a family, in many cases, a patient, middle-aged, women, ladies and their pouse, came home and they  get suffered and they are too tired to prepare meal.

[00:28:26] The husband tend get angry about, "What are you doing? This is scent, lovely product, and you get tired? Too tired to prepare meal?" So, there is a, very, serious misunderstanding between these, married couple. And, I, found out a lot of cases, due to MCS, some married couple, broke off.

[00:28:54] As very tragic and very sad, but, even in a family [00:29:00] as well as the wider society, for example, a workplace, if someone get sick or they have some symptoms when they are working, but their superior have difficulty to understand what's going on.

[00:29:19] So uh, lot of people according to my opinion survey 15 years ago, among the age of 40s, nearly half people experienced trouble in their working place or even some of them lost their job, retired or fired. In the workplace, in the family, these misunderstandings causes a very big problem between family member and working people.[00:30:00] 

Aaron Goodman: [00:30:05] Yuri-san, it's clear that it's a serious situation in Japan. Millions of people are excluded, misunderstood, families abandoning them. Do you want to talk a little bit about some of the human experiences that you know about as Professor Terada was talking about marriages breaking up because of MCS? The challenges that you know of that it creates in families and society?

Keiko Fukaya: [00:30:37] I think not that many people with MCS and who are suffering from fragranced laundry products when they are affected, not many of them say it to friends or colleagues or to companies who delivered. Maybe they tend to say more to the companies, this is not only in Japan, [00:31:00] but, many people say that they don't dare to voice it to friends and colleagues, because of fear of not being understood or in some cases, apparently, they get ignored and in the worst cases, bullied.

[00:31:19] I myself have been talking to friends and colleagues, every time, because now I have more time, I get affected. I talk to the companies, shops, and so on. But, it's very difficult for people to voice. Even, for example, there's a repairer who has to come in, in the house, and they request, for somebody not, wearing, these products to come in.

[00:31:45] But they normally say they don't have such a person, so they are being abandoned without the necessary repair and so on. At schools, of course, parents and the kids don't dare say [00:32:00] anything, so you cannot expect any improvement of course, I understand very well why they cannot dare to speak out.

[00:32:10] Uh, so we need more voices.

Aaron Goodman: [00:32:15] Perhaps for international listeners, could you please say a little bit more about the challenges of speaking of expressing what's happening? Is there something about Japanese culture that makes it challenging to talk openly about it?

Yuri Kitagawa: [00:32:34] I myself have experienced, friends who said, you know, when I talked about, the fragranced laundry products she was using, she said to me, "Oh, you know, you're saying something that I might be, it sounds as if I am a bad person."

[00:32:51] But, I'm not talking about her. I'm talking about the laundry products she is using. And also, quite a few of my [00:33:00] colleagues, listened to what, I said, and they changed the products, even some of my neighbors. But apparently that's rare. People who are being told that, their products is not good, they don't understand because, the olfactory fatigue, you know, prevents them from, sensing the smell.

[00:33:22] And, uh, you know, they are just using the products sold normally in the shops. So it's very, very common. Probably, I don't know, more than half or even more of, the times, people who are being told that, the products they're using are making other people sick, they can't believe or they cannot understand.

[00:33:45] So when they know that that's going to happen, it makes it very difficult. So it's not only in Japan, but there's more in Japan because more people use the fragranced products, and also there's a lot of peer [00:34:00] pressure in Japan. You know, you do what the others are doing, and the majority is right.

[00:34:09] When something is considered to be the norm or, common sense, people don't understand that there are people who don't fit in that category. 

Aaron Goodman: Can you talk a little bit about what's unique about the p- can you talk a little bit about what's unique about the fragrance products in Japan?

Yuri Kitagawa: [00:34:28] There are three major companies that sell these fragranced laundry products. Two are Japanese, one is American. For the laundry detergents, they're obliged to disclose more. But, there's no regulation for disclosing, fragrances for, fabric softeners,

[00:34:51] Because of all the mountains in Japan. 85% of Japan is mountains, so we have a lot of water. And the quality of Japanese [00:35:00] water is soft water, which means, I mean, not so many, uh, um, minerals in the water, which is suited for laundry. So, uh, Japanese wash-- uh, most of the washing machines that the Japanese use, use a lot of water, but cold water, um, because it's less c-less expensive to make washing machines that does not have the system to heat the water.

[00:35:27] And as it has been mentioned, Japanese people have been, extending their laundry outside to dry in the sun, and people like doing that. So that affects, the houses around- and because they don't dry, with the heat, I imagine, uh, I don't think this has been, uh, really tested, but there's more fabric softener which...

[00:35:55] I mean, you don't rinse, uh, the laundry after [00:36:00] putting the fabric-fabric softener. So this, uh, fragrance in microcapsules, probably more of that remains in the laundry. Well, actually, there was an experiment by, um, a scientist. Uh, we hear that in one small cup of, uh, um, fabric softener, there are 100 million, uh, microcapsules.

[00:36:27] And, in a study, it was found out in one garment, having gone through laundry and drying, there were 400,000 microcapsules left still in one garment. Yeah. It's really the microcapsules, isn't it? That are heavily advertised and widely used and very fragrant. What are these microcapsules?

[00:36:59] Why are they [00:37:00] so popular? Well, we talk about, slow-release technology, which means... I mean, in the ads, they say, the, piece of garment, , stays with the, the fragrance 12 weeks. But in reality, I think it stays for years. And you know, it can't be removed even after, washing it for 10 times.

[00:37:25] And, most of the technology uses microcapsules. There are other technologies, but,, they trap, they put, the fragrances and antimicrobial chemicals in these microcapsules. And with friction and, humidity, you know, that is slowly, released in the air, and the, the microcapsules break, and it emits, the fragrances and, the chemicals.

[00:37:51] In the EU, They've already banned,, the use of intentionally added microplastics in products in- which [00:38:00] includes microcapsules. Of course, it's possible to make organic,, micro, or capsules, but the technology is not that advanced yet. But unless they forbid the use of,, the slow-release technology, I don't think we can solve, uh... the best way will be to to introduce scent-free policy.

Aaron Goodman: [00:38:24] We've heard about peer pressure and conformity. Do you wanna talk a bit more about the legislation and if there's any hope that these will be better regulated?

Ryoichi Terada: [00:38:34] I remember when I started, uh, teaching in the university, I had a hard time, uh, when we had a professors' meeting and aged professors like to smoke all the time continuously, so I didn't like that, and I had a very hard time to, uh, stand with the, contaminated, air, in, in the, meeting room.[00:39:00] 

[00:39:00] However, a little bit after that, doctors, analyzed that the, secondhand smoke causes the risk of the lung cancer as well. So the, legislature changed the idea to ban smoking in the, in room or, in the face of the ordinary people,

[00:39:20] So this become the legislature that ban open air smoking, like walking smoking like that. So, right now, we are, liberated from the secondhand smoking. So I think this is, same situation. If people understand the, laundry product, flagrance or other toxic chemicals should be banned basically in the public space.

[00:39:52] And some people maybe, 5%, 10% I don't know, 15% maybe a little bit [00:40:00] later, suffer from the, these chemicals anyway. So we should, ban these affecting chemicals. So I would say that we have legislature that  says the discrimination reducing act for the handicapped people in 2024.

[00:40:24] But in this case, before that, MCS patients were not included as the, affected people ... disadvantaged people. But after 2024, the legislature include MCS patient as well. So for example, the restaurant, have to provide specific space for the wheelchair people even before that.

[00:40:54] But after 2024, they have to, consider the [00:41:00] better condition for the MCS patient, including of course, a, cigarette is no more, and as well as the, laundry product scent, fragrance, that affect MCS patients as well. So this is not the very strict legislature.

[00:41:24] And they have to, , take into account these factors. So they are not perfect, but at least the the law ask them to reduce the risk for the handicapped people, including MCS patients. That's a big step, I think, for the MCS situation. However,  before that, we have to enhance public opinion or public belief that even a good smell [00:42:00] causes a negative effect for some percentage of people.

Aaron Goodman: [00:42:06] Professor Terada, I wanted to ask you, in your understanding, roughly how many people in Japan experience some degree of MCS?

Ryoichi Terada:[00:42:26] Okay, um, some doctor I know, Said that, 75% of the,-nations, in some sense, have  MCS tendency. But, , basically, more patient or candidate of patient, maybe around 10, 15%. But those who diagnosed, medically is a little bit less. So I think 7.5% is , based on this medical index.

[00:42:59] And I think, [00:43:00] I believe, that number, basically.

Aaron Goodman: [00:43:10] About seven point five percent of the population self-reports some degree of MCS. I want to invite you to offer some context. You know, how does this compare to the numbers of people with other illnesses, for example, diabetes or cancer?

[00:43:30] Because we know that MCS doesn't have as much recognition, doesn't have as much research, is still much more widely misunderstood. So could you just maybe contextualize it a little bit for me, please? Okay.

Ryoichi Terada: [00:43:51] We interviewed, the scholar, a professor of Melbourne University [00:44:00] Dr. Anne Steinemann, she told us, basically, 32 or 33% of adult in Australia, US, Canada, Sweden, shows the tendency to have  MCS due to laundry product or fragrance. So I think among school students, including, in elementary school and middle school. I watched the  tendency from the  smaller ones,  maybe a nursery school, kindergarten is only 2.1%, and going up to 12.9% among, middle school student.

[00:44:49] And we haven't had a number among the high school student, but we can expect more people are suffering from [00:45:00] fragrance, MCS. So I understand Dr. Anne Steinemann’s number, with the rational basis.

Aaron Goodman: [00:45:14] You've showed me a photograph of a student at a desk writing an exam outside of the classroom. Is this fairly common? 

Yuri Kitagawa: Well, we always hear, because probably none of the schools in Japan, have, adopted, the, fragrance-free policy although, um, the municipalities and the headmasters have the right to decide. Maybe except for one, I mean, we have not yet heard of a school or municipalities that, said that they would, adopt, fragrance-free policies in schools.

[00:45:59] So [00:46:00] what they do, now is to, make consideration for individual pupils, which means separate them in a different classroom or room. Well, probably this person-- the school might not have been able to find a space inside, or a sort of a fragrance-free space in the building. So that's why, the student, in the photo was, sitting in front of a desk outside, probably in, the, premises, with an umbrella because, the outside temperature was 30 degrees or more.

[00:46:40] Thirty-five degrees. But it's happening all the time that they are isolated, and of course, they are often left on their own. Maybe the teacher would visit, the student once, I , during the day. So, the student, the the pupil, are separated from their [00:47:00] classmate, her or his class.

[00:47:02] So it's, uh,  sad, and, in the end, you know, often happens that, the child is no longer able to go to school, being in such a situation of, not getting proper education, I mean, the same education as others, I mean, ends up not going to school which happens, I think, quite often.

[00:47:28] One more, program is not in the school, but the daycare center for the aged people. We are, getting older and older, as a whole society and, we are having more and more aged persons. And we have more necessity to take care of these aged persons, with the specialized professional care

[00:47:55] and sizable people are [00:48:00] getting MCS recently. So if the, aged people who need help is MCS, patient, they have difficulty to be, taken care of, by these helpers. And some carer don't understand what MCS is, so, sometimes their, garment is very smelly.

[00:48:26] I would say, too much, fragrance. So these, MCS patient, aged persons have big trouble for that. So they're talking about how, we can solve this program and to, make understand these, caring people. This fragrance is no good for the some of the aged people.

[00:48:48] So this is a, new problem that we face, other than this school. But, this kind of situation occur in many places, for example, delivery [00:49:00] people. We have a very good delivery system. Consumers cooperative deliver, for example, organic vegetable, something like that. However, if delivery people are contaminated with these fragrance, the consumer cannot enjoy or have to, reject in some cases.

[00:49:24] So, we have many kind of MCS issues in every corner of our society and we have to, deepen the understanding of the problem of the fragrance issues. And that's also task, these days, I believe.

[00:49:45] One concern, recently, medical doctors specializing in MCS have started prescribing symptom-relieving drugs. And they say that these drugs were effective for half [00:50:00] of the patients. These movements appear to show that the medical and pharmaceutical and the government intend to aim to alleviate the symptoms using drugs, without reducing the synthetic chemical substances.

[00:50:16] The drugs can carry side effects. Also, there are patients who cannot tolerate drugs, so this is not the solution. As you say, a lot of people can't tolerate it. So it's not the solution that we need. . 

[00:50:30] I think it makes sense to reduce chemicals we use and especially fragrance chemicals. But many people here seem not to understand why, I mean, they cannot use, products that are sold in shops. People who, talk about the problem are often told, you know, we should be free to choose the products we use.[00:51:00] 

[00:51:00] So it is very difficult to change the behavior of many people. I think,  there is a similar situation everywhere, but it might be especially true, in Japan. Because many people think that, if they are not banned, they have the freedom to use

Aaron Goodman: [00:51:32] My impression is that Japanese people care about each other, but I hear you say that people are often reluctant or unwilling to change their consumer products even when it may harm people.

Yuri Kitagawa:[00:51:42] Well, the reason and the cause for that, it's probably that, they don't believe, they don't understand that these products can harm other people

Aaron Goodman: [00:51:56] I wonder if this is partly because of the role of advertising . 

Yuri Kitagawa: I mean, [00:52:00] every time I switch on the television, these products are advertised, all the time for the past more than 10 years. So people believe the ads.

Aaron Goodman: Professor Terada, I feel sad when I think about the smell of Japan, the natural smells being changed by laundry products.

[00:52:29] How is it for you as a Japanese person? How do you feel about these issues? 

Ryoichi Terada: Oh, I think I agree with you. It's horrible. I mean, the smell of laundry products, it's not, just sweet smells, flowery smells. And I think I only want to sense those kind of smell from the real flowers and maybe fruits and so on. [00:52:56] I don't think I want anything else. 

Aaron Goodman: Is it true that [00:53:00] even in the countryside in Japan, it's hard to get away from the artificial laundry smells? 

Yuri Kitagawa: Yes. As long as, there are people in the countryside or living in the countryside. It's not that, uh, those living in the countryside use less of these products than those living in the cities.

Aaron Goodman: [00:53:20] Would you like to add anything else?

PERSON? [00:53:36] We need to promote fragrance-free policy and demand for reduction of synthetic chemical substances, which are the causal substance. We will work together with, for example, environmental bodies and we will live better life for the future.

Ryoichi Terada: [00:53:59] Lastly, [00:54:00] I would like to add two points. And one is that, we have to translate the chemical issues into social norms. The same as secondhand, smoking., If, they understand that the majority of citizens understand the fragrance is, bad for some people and they, worsen their health situation, I think, yeah, Japanese people or, or any other people will understand that the ban that sort of lessen the amount of, these artificial chemicals, as long as, we can, they will understand this will help, to promote the, affected people's, happiness.

[00:54:53] And, this is a-- I think we share the social norm, [00:55:00] so, fragrance is not always good for every people, but for the, sizable people, it's harmful. More than ninety percent of these fragrances are artificially made, so this is not natural, ones, but synthetic chemicals, including toxic materials. So this will be the long way, but we have to disseminate the idea that, fragrance is not always good, and many cases this is harmful for many people

[00:55:39] It would be take long time, but, we, consumers, movement, have to, move for that. And the second thing is that MCS is not only bad aspect of chemicals, but also we have, many new side of toxic chemicals [00:56:00] recently. For example, ED, endocrine disrupting chemicals,, that degrade, fertility or, neurological development issues, so that we are having more and more ADHD, attention deficit and hyper-action disorder or learning disabilities and autism spectrum disease, so we are having more and more psychological trouble or neurological trouble among children, babies and we are having less and less, fertile. We have, more trouble to have some babies.

[00:56:48] So this is a big iceberg of the chemical hazard and MCS is just the, tip of the big [00:57:00] iceberg. But even though this is a tip this, is connecting all of these, hardship. So we have to, tackle these, we have to interconnect , whole of the iceberg as a chemical disaster or chemical injury, I would say.

Aaron Goodman: [00:57:18] I wanted to ask you, for people outside of Japan, what do you think they can learn about the situation here? Whether it's the kogai, the fragrance pollution, the kind of activism and advocacy you're doing, the harms that are being caused to children in schools, aged people, older people. Is there something that you think they can take away from Japan's experience, or why should people care about what's happening in Japan?

Yuri Kitagawa: [00:57:53] I mean, MCS caused by fragranced products, especially laundry products, is quite [00:58:00] specific of the situation in Japan because so many people use the products and also maybe because of the way of laundry in Japan. But I know the same problem exists in the West and other countries.

[00:58:16] So, we can at least, say exactly what's happening in Japan. M-maybe that's, provides some information for people in other countries but unfortunately, uh, as we've been talking, I mean, we have not really found, a good direction or for a solution of the problem we have now. So it's something we need to work together and try to come up with, sort of, work on our imagination to find a good way for a good solution [00:59:00] as early as possible.

Ryoichi Terada: [00:59:03] Maybe Japan, the situation of Japan is very similar to other countries, I think. So we must work together with this kind of problems of MCS. We must collaborate with each other and exchange information. . We are, having more and more, visitors to Japan recently, and, many of them follow the, Japanese lifestyle.

[00:59:36] Many of maybe young ladies and young girls try to buy Japanese, cosmetics or follow the Japanese lifestyle. So the, think it's important to put distorted, I would say, lifestyle on the right track. We are going to  help visitors, try Japanese wrong [01:00:00] way to use too much fragrance, too much cosmetics.

[01:00:05] But Japan decided not to adapt that direction. That will help, more and more, de- so-called developing countries' lifestyle as well. So we, Asian, environmental NGOs, right now have the, relationship with each other to, find solution of each other's, problems.

[01:00:32] In the, developing countries, for example, lead contamination, mercury contamination, and we are having fragrance contamination as well. So we talk about each other and make an effort to go to the right direction. We have to,, cooperate, and we are doing the cooperation with each other right [01:01:00] now

Aaron Goodman: [01:01:13] You've been listening to The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. I'm the host and podcast creator Aaron Goodman. The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast is by and for the MCS community. The podcast is generously supported by the Marilyn Brachman Hoffman Foundation and listeners like you. If you wish to support the podcast, please visit listen.chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org.

[01:01:36] Your support will help us continue making the podcast available and creating greater awareness about MCS[01:02:00] 

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[01:02:17] The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast and its associated website are the work of Aaron Goodman, made possible with funds from the Marilyn Brachman Hoffman Foundation, supporting efforts to educate and inform physicians, scientists, and the public about multiple chemical sensitivity. The content, opinions, findings, statements, and recommendations expressed in this Chemical Sensitivity Podcast and associated website do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of its sponsors.