Aaron Goodman: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast. I'm Aaron Goodman. This is the first in a series of conversations you'll hear and see on the podcast with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity or MCS researchers, advocates, clinicians, legal experts, and people with lived experience in a few different parts of Europe.

My goal is to amplify their voices and insights, help build connections across countries and communities, and learn more about what the experience of MCS looks like in Spain, Italy, and France, including how people are working to improve recognition, accessibility, healthcare, and human rights. 

Traveling with MCS, as you know, takes a lot of preparation. Throughout this trip, I wore my mask frequently, I communicated at length with hosts about fragrances and cleaning products, and I carefully planned where I would stay and how I would travel, and I did what I could to reduce exposures along the [00:01:00] way. And it wasn't always easy, but being able to meet people face to face, hear their stories, and bring these conversations to you made the journey deeply worthwhile.

I hope this series helps connect people living with MCS across borders and highlights both the challenges people continue to face and the work being done to create change.

What if people with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity don't have to wait for medicine to fully understand or recognize the condition before they can challenge discrimination and claim their rights?

My guest today, Paloma Torres López, offers a potentially profound shift in how we think about MCS. Rather than focusing only on diagnosis, biology, and medical recognition, Paloma argues that MCS can also be understood through disability and human rights law by looking at the barriers that prevent people from participating equally in society.

[00:02:00] Paloma is an international human rights lawyer and co-founder of Medusa Human Rights, a legal and consultancy firm specializing in international human rights law in Madrid, Spain. She has extensive experience in strategic litigation, legal research, and advocacy in Spain, as well as within international and regional human rights mechanisms.

Paloma Torres López: The moment that your health condition, that something that happens in your body confronts external barriers that could be physical, attitudinal, and also ambiental, if this confrontation limits your access to rights, then there is a disability. This is the starting point. So you don't need the diagnosis, and you don't need an official administrative recognition to understand that this is a disability.

Aaron Goodman: [00:03:00] According to Paloma, people with MCS may be able to challenge discrimination in workplaces, schools, healthcare settings, and public spaces, and seek accessibility measures and reasonable accommodations that make equal participation possible. Paloma explains the social model of disability, the idea that disability can arise when a person's health condition encounters barriers in the environment that limit their ability to participate equally in society.

And critically, she argues that people with MCS do not have to wait for every medical and scientific debate surrounding the condition to be resolved before advocating for their rights. We talk about accessibility, reasonable accommodation, organic disability, fragrance-free policies, and discrimination by association, including how barriers affecting people with MCS can also affect their children and families.

And we ask whether [00:04:00] this human rights approach could offer a way forward for people with MCS beyond Spain as well. As Paloma tells me, it's about discrimination, and it's about rights. A few terms and organizations you'll hear in our conversation CONFESQ is Spain's National Coalition for Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity, and Multiple Chemical Sensitivity.

You'll soon hear my interview with its president, Maria López Matallana. Paloma also mentions SFC SQM Madrid, the Madrid Association for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, and COCEMFE, the Spanish Confederation of People with Physical and Organic Disabilities, of which CONFESQ is a part. And SQM stands for Sensibilidad Química Múltiple, Multiple Chemical Sensitivity in Spanish. 

Please check out and share a [00:05:00] link to the podcast. It's listen.chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org. It's an easy way to introduce friends, family members, healthcare providers, researchers, and others to conversations about MCS.

Please subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more, follow the Chemical Sensitivity Podcast on YouTube, Facebook, X, Instagram, Blue Sky, and TikTok. And you can reach me at aaron@chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org. Here's my conversation with Paloma Torres López.

Paloma Torres López: My name is Paloma, and I'm an international human rights lawyer and consultant and co-founder of, uh, Medusa Human Rights, which is the first human rights law and consulting firm in Spain.

We are specialized in litigation here in Spain, but also, uh, before international and regional human [00:06:00] rights, protection mechanisms, such as the UN or the Council of Europe. But also we litigate here in Spain different issues regarding human rights. And we also have a consultancy department where we try to make research, also advocacy, and what we call in Spain accompaniment, like acompañamiento to civil society, to individual persons, to public institutions in order to help them comply with the human rights framework.

Our first contact with health, uh, related human rights issues and also disability rights was precisely, say, SFCCQM Madrid, EHS. It's true that we have a personal commitment because in the team we [00:07:00] have family members with these health conditions, so it's kind of personal also. Precisely because of this personal connection, uh, we have this purpose in Medusa that is try to change the way of seeing things and try to change the status quo and try to empower people from civil society to understand better their rights and try to have another perspective.

And what I believe that we have been supporting CONFESQ and all the associations since 2022 are precisely to change the language, to change the perspective. It's not about discussing the biological origin of certain health conditions. It's not about that. It's about seeing the people, seeing the barriers, try to understand [00:08:00] which administrations have to act, what are their obligations as public administrations under international, regional, and national law, and, uh, then try to claim the rights for them.

You are not talking about if I've been mistreated when going to the doctor. You are talking about my right to reasonable accommodation. I think one of the things that we changed there was that the people coming-- the people affected reading our reports and also coming to our conferences, they were like, "Wow, do I have this right?

I didn't know. I didn't know that this was my right." So now I know how to claim it. So this was the seed that we planted. Then after that, we continue and we try to [00:09:00] understand how these barriers actually affect the people. The people that were actually interviewed, our hypothesis, we will focus on the access to rights, access to employment, access to education, for instance.

And we discovered very interesting and meaningful things that people were really depressed. They were feeling the exclusion. Maybe it was the first time that they were being asked about it. So it was very important for us because we try to have always a socio-legal perspective in our studies. So after that, it was very interesting because we analyzed how the barriers affected the people.

Aaron Goodman: It's so interesting to hear you, and quite moving because as you point out, we're often told that we have no rights, and we just have to be [00:10:00] quiet and accept the exclusion and the discrimination, and being terminated at work, and discriminated, and misdiagnosed, and dismissed by clinicians without any recourse. And what I hear you saying is that we have rights. Was there a specific moment when you realized that MCS cannot only be approached as a biological illness, but through a disability and human rights framework? 

Paloma Torres López: Well, I don't know if there was a moment, but as I told you, knowing people suffering from these conditions, there was something that for me it was missing. Because I have accompanied a lot of civil society organizations from different perspectives: children's rights, [00:11:00] women's rights, indigenous rights. Okay? And suddenly, when I came in touch with civil society organizations related to these health conditions, I felt some- something was missing. Like, everyone was so focused on one perspective, on the health condition, on early diagnosis, early treatment, a recognition of the health disease.

And even between them, they were arguing constantly about different medical perspectives. And in my opinion, that was a very limited approach. Something was missing. And I think here when we tried to understand, it was a really hard research when we tried to understand the definitions of disability under the International UN Convention of Rights of the People with Disabilities We were trying [00:12:00] to adapt the situation of people with these health conditions under this definition.

This was hard legally. But there was something that was very helpful, and it was the work of the Association COTEMFE, which is a very huge organization here in Spain that, uh, COMFESQ is part of COTEMFE, and they have been trying to make more visible one kind of disability, which is called organic disability.

It's true that maybe in English, organic disability, it seems that we are going back to the medical perspective of disability, but no, because that definition is totally based on the social model of disability, the one that is followed by the UN convention. This organic disability is profoundly developed in the white book.

It's called the [00:13:00] The White Book of Organic Disability from COTEMFE. And it's the time when we realize that disability derives from these health conditions is organic disability. This is the moment when we studied deeply this book, we realized, "Hey, we are talking here about organic disability, so we can actually do this work of understanding this disability under the UN convention.” And then once we do that, then we can claim the rights." But that's the first step.

Aaron Goodman: It's very interesting. My understanding is that the World Health Organization has not yet recognized MCS, and that means that around the world, medical associations, doctors do not have a diagnostic code to [00:14:00] diagnose MCS, and that's why we don't get the medical recognition help we need.

But you're saying that we-- you can go around that, that there are legal mechanisms that you use to defend people and to help people ask for their rights. I think it's very interesting because it's a new way of seeing things. 

Paloma Torres López: It's a new perspective that is followed by different countries also, but it's also tricky. I mean, we have put a lot of what we call legal creativity because we believe that invisible situations and invisible things, uh, require, uh, legal creativity also. The thing is, all the barriers that were described before is what we call, uh, in Spain, barriers in escalada, like escalated, accumulative barriers.

The first [00:15:00] thing is that even if we are trying to have, and I believe that most at least Western countries are going to, even if we believe that our national legal context are going or are moving towards a social model of disability concept, the reality is that when you try to access to disability rights, the this disability is usually are actually based on a medical model of disability.

So the thing is, of course, the lack of medical recognition is one of the main barriers because usually if you don't have this recognition, then the administrative of the official recognition of the disability is gonna be [00:16:00] harder. However, the international and international and regional human rights framework of disability doesn't need a diagnosis.

The thing is, the moment that your health condition, that something that happens in your body confronts external barriers that could be physical, attitudinal, and also ambiental Then if you have this confrontation and this confrontation, uh, limits your access to rights, then there is a disability. This is actually the, the starting point.

So you don't need the diagnosis and you don't need an official administrative recognition to understand that this is a disability [00:17:00] because this is the social model of disability concept. This is a material reality that is not subjected to an official recognition. What happens actually in the real world, in the national frameworks, then it's easier if you have a medical statement, if you have a diagnosis.

If you have a diagnosis, it's gonna be easier that you get the disability recognition. So it's something that goes and goes and goes and goes. But the legal framework says another thing, and this is something that civil society in Spain, in the Netherlands, in Sweden, and I understand that in different countries also that maybe we don't know, they are trying to go through this.

So our proposal is to push with [00:18:00] legal creativity. So it's trying to select cases, trying to push and say, "Hey, this is a disability." "No, but you don't have the disability recognition." "Yeah, but this, this is a disability under UN convention and the UN convention is completely applicable here in Spain." So let's see what the judges says.

Let's see what the public administration says and let's hope that we find something. And actually in Spain, there have been different case law very interesting about this, uh, from judges that actually understood all the gender perspective, the human rights perspective and the disability perspective in evaluating the disability of a person with these health conditions.

It's a small case law. It's not big case law, but there is and this is because the people affected and their lawyers are [00:19:00] pushing towards this new perspective.

Aaron Goodman: What do accessibility and reasonable accommodation mean in human rights law, and how do those concepts apply to someone with MCS?

Paloma Torres López: These two concepts are the base of the non-discrimination principle under the UN convention, not only the UN convention, but also under the international and regional human rights law regarding disability. Okay? The whole convention and the whole legal framework says that no one can be discriminated on the grounds of disability.

And the [00:20:00] articles and the legal framework goes farther, and it says accessibility is the first part. So everyone should have access to every, in Spanish we say bien, producto, espacio, you know, everything, every aspect of life. Basically is the access to everything, every space- Mm-hmm ... every product, every everything.

It means that the public administrations, they have the obligation first to understand what's going on, and this means research, and this means investment in research to understand the different disabilities that exist in their territory, not only the physical, not only the intellectual, but also the organic disabilities and how they affect people so they can make [00:21:00] accessible the places.

For instance, one accessibility measure has to be previous to everything could be to have a zero fragrance policy in public administration buildings. This could be one accessibility measure. Then reasonable accommodation appears when there are no accessibility measures implemented, and this means that one person or a group of persons ask actually an adaptation of something in order to access.

So everyone understands with physical disabilities, like mobility disabilities, for instance, I cannot access this building because there are stairs and I have a wheelchair. So this happens the same. I cannot go into my workplace because is-- there are chemical [00:22:00] products. Okay? So I ask my employers to adapt their space to my need.

This is a reasonable accommodation. This is when someone ask an adaptation in order to access to some place or to some rights or I, I don't know, to everything. However, after the researches and after talking to a lot of people affected with these health conditions, we discovered first that people didn't know their rights to reasonable accommodations.

But also the interesting thing is that no one knows what procedural rights you have within the reasonable accommodation rights, which is not just to ask for a reasonable accommodation and have an answer. It's more about it. So the public administration or the business that you are asking for [00:23:00] a reasonable accommodation, they have the obligation to do certain steps.

First step, listening to you, of course. Second step, evaluate what you are asking. Evaluate not only because sometimes tip- Doesn't mean, easy. It

doesn't mean that. Reasonable accommodation means that what you are implementing, the accommodation, is actually fulfilling your need. So they have to evaluate it, and of course they have to evaluate it in an economical way. But if they cannot provide you with this accommodation, they have the obligation to give you an alternative.

And if you don't have this alternative, they are not complying with this obligation, and it's an international [00:24:00] human rights obligation. It's a serious thing. And actually, in Spain, we have also this in our national legal framework. So the thing is, they need to listen to you, they need to evaluate, they need to give you an answer.

That could be yes, that could be no, but if it's no, you need to have an alternative. And then if they don't have any alternative, they need to deeply explain it to you. And you need to have the right to appeal this decision. This should be the procedure. What is the problem, at least in Spain, is that first, no one knows about this.

No businesses, no public administrations. So it's very difficult But the thing is that actually, even if we have a nice legal framework, you know, with rights and with recognizing the reasonable accommodation [00:25:00] and accessibility and everything, actually we don't have, for instance, guidelines to do this evaluation of the reasonable accommodation.

And this is the public administration obligation because if you as a business, as a private business, need to know how to do an evaluation of a reasonable accommodation request, you need to know how. So maybe the public administration needs to go deeper into these regulations and to show how it's done because then also the people that want to require and want to ask for this reasonable accommodation, actually in many conference that we go, they first they don't know that they have this reasonable accommodation rights, but also they don't know how to do it.

They are like, "Should I just go and write a letter? Should I..." So this is where also civil society organizations enter into the game because they can help them into…We [00:26:00] kind of invent ways of asking officially for this reasonable accommodation and then try to go before a judge to understand if these rights have been fulfilled.

But we don't have actually an administrative or even private procedure to follow, so we have to invent it. So I think this is what it means. And every time there is no accessibility measures, but also, uh, there is not a reasonable accommodation or in the reasonable accommodation evaluation, some of the steps are not, uh, fully followed, there is a violation of the human rights of not being discriminated on the grounds of disability. This is the point.

Aaron Goodman: So if an employer in Spain or another [00:27:00] organization refuses to provide a fragrance-free or otherwise chemically accessible environment, could that potentially constitute disability discrimination? And what would someone with MCS need to do?

Paloma Torres López: Absolutely. I completely, uh, agree with that. However, as I told you before, it's a bit tricky and it depends also on the judicial system. Why? Because if you happen to encounter this situation and you have the disability officially recognized, it's gonna be easier to say, "Hey, you have discriminated him on the grounds of disability because you refused to provide him with a reasonable accommodation."

But if you don't have the disability officially recognized, [00:28:00] some judges that maybe don't know about the legal framework, because this is one important thing, that judges, at least in Spain, they don't really fancy the international human rights framework, so usually they don't know it and they just want to apply what they know here in Spain, and I believe this is something that happens also in other countries in Europe.

If you don't have the disability officially recognized, then you have to use a lot of international human rights law, and some judges, they don't like this approach or they are ... Maybe they don't know it. So this is why it's important to start from the beginning and also making statements, making complaints before the ombudsman, before the anti-discrimination authority in your country.

It's important that every civil society organization, they know about these things so they can [00:29:00] also support the lawyers. A lot of lawyers, they don't know international human rights framework, and they just have a national limited perspective. So if you don't use this social model, and if you don't use this accessibility and this, uh, reasonable accommodation concepts, and i- and usually a lot of lawyers would say, "No, I'm not going to appeal this decision because you don't have the disability recognized."

And the thing is that we need to push the other way. And as I told you, there are some case law, very interesting case law, of judges that actually got in contact with civil organizations To try to understand these affections and to try to understand why you need to have certain perspective into account when [00:30:00] evaluating the disability or when evaluating a denial of a reasonable accommodation. But we are still, as we say in Spanish, very green. We have a long way to go in this regard, but I think we are going the right way.

Aaron Goodman: Does Spain need new laws to specifically protect people with MCS? Or are many of the necessary laws already in place, but just not being applied?

Paloma Torres López: I don't believe we need more laws or new laws or to modify our [00:31:00] laws or our legal and policy framework. The government in Spain, they have tried to accommodate our legal framework to the international human rights legal framework. They have made an effort to do that. But the thing is the practice, the administrative practice, and also our model is based on the social concept of disability, but in the administrative practice, it is not.

Actually, I think two years ago or three years ago, I don't remember, what we call the Baremo, which is like the, the rules that the public administration uses to evaluate the disability of a person, because here in Spain, we evaluated it with a degree, with a per- percentage, that you have 33 percentage of disability.

And, it depends on the grade, [00:32:00] you have access to different rights or not. Okay? So the, the, the first limit is 33, then you have 65, then you have 70. Okay? So some years ago, the rules this, uh, evaluation is based on, they changed and they were more interesting for people with these health conditions because they incorporate more social factors, more ambiental factors.

So it was a nice move towards the recognition of disability of people with these health conditions. Okay? But in practice, the people that actually have to evaluate this disability degree, they are not trained So they [00:33:00] don't know how to identify these limitations. This is important because it's a new baremo, uh, it's a better baremo, but it's not the best baremo because I know that CONFESQ and from different civil organizations, they tried to include more requirements and more things that were more maybe favorable to people with these health conditions and they were not admitted.

So it was an advance but not that advance that we would like to. But people that have to do these evaluations, they are not trained so there is a lack. First, there is a lack of research and a lack of knowledge. Not medical knowledge but actually how these people access to their rights from a disability perspective, from a socio-legal perspective, okay?

But also even if our [00:34:00] laws are very interesting to people with these conditions and favorable to people with these conditions and other ambiental related disabilities, the administrative practice is not okay because the people are not trained. There is a stigma, a very huge stigma. There is not the medical recognition so this also affects the evaluation of the disability degree.

This is a problem because then they won't have access to certain rights, even economical rights, uh, cultural rights, accessibility rights and this is gonna make it more difficult to then understand that this, there was a discrimination. So it's like a slippery slope, you know, that actually make that in practice people are more excluded that they should be [00:35:00] according to our laws.

Aaron Goodman: I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the, the concept of organic disability because it's new for me and will likely be for many people listening. Are you talking about invisible illness? Is it the same thing or is organic disability something different, please?

Paloma Torres López: The concept that they have built in this regard based on the social model of disability, and they say that organic disability is this one that is derived from a health condition that goes within the body, so sometimes it's not visible. These diseases, the symptoms appear sometimes and sometimes not. Uh, maybe they need certain adaptations that are very unknown.

For instance, people with Crohn's diseases or other [00:36:00] inflammatory digestive diseases, they need to work near to a bathroom. This is an example of a reasonable accommodation for a person that has Crohn's disease maybe, and it's that easy. No? So it's these kind of diseases that when they confront barriers that could be physical, such this need to go to a bathroom, they could be physical also because you get very tired and you need a place to sit down.

These kind of things or diseases when they confront with these physical barriers, but also attitudinal barriers because they don't understand that, okay, you have Crohn's disease, but I don't understand why this, this could be disabling you somehow. I don't understand why you need adaptation. So because this perspective has only [00:37:00] been focused on health and not barriers.

But you know one thing that there is a difference between every organic disability and the organic disability that derives from SQM. Let me see if I can explain it in English. Uh, you will always have a Crohn's disease, okay? You will always have it, even if you need to go to the bathroom or not, even if there is, uh, the barrier or not, okay?

But with SQM, if you don't have the barrier, you don't have the disease Somehow in an ideal place where there is no chemical exposure at all, imagine, this is utopic of course, you don't have the symptoms, you don't have the reaction. [00:38:00] So the disability is very connected with the, the, the matter that there is an ambient environmental barrier.

So it's different because of course you have it, but you won't have the, the reaction, the symptom. Of course, this is utopic because we are living completely surrounded of chemical products. But Crohn's disease and the symptoms of the Crohn's disease are gonna be there always, even if you face the barrier or not.

And this is very interesting because with political will and very easy accessibility measures and very easy accommodation, reasonable accommodation measures, you can make life of people with these health conditions better. When we began speaking, you spoke of people who experience a range of different forms of discrimination, indigenous people, people with women, people with other [00:39:00] disabilities, and other.

Aaron Goodman: I know it may be hard to be precise, but where do people with MCS fall in this umbrella in, in Spain? The people you've met and spoken with, how severe is the discrimination from a legal, social perspective when you compare it to other forms of discrimination?

Paloma Torres López: Well, I'm glad that you asked this question. I don't know if my answer is gonna, is gonna fit because I actually believe in what we call intersectional disability. So I don't believe that someone is more discriminate than others because every discrimination experience is unique. It's not a cumulative discrimination.

It's not like a part of a pie, you know? It's the person [00:40:00] in their context. So for instance, when we are talking about intersectional discrimination in these kind of cases, I believe that we need to specifically address a gender discrimination, also age discrimination, disability discrimination. It's not about discrimination, but what we call structures of power.

You have the gender, you have the patriarchy, you have also the power relation between medical authorities and patients. So I think this is very important also because this mixed with, um, gender discrimination in health issues, it's all connected and this is very important because if you have read some of reports that we have made, uh, we are addressing the gender perspective not only because are more women affected by these diseases, but also because the origin when we go back years and years and years, and they [00:41:00] were talking about these women that went crazy and they needed some special treatments and everything, this was the origin of this kind of, uh, health conditions.

But also historically, when women try to claim treatments for something that happens to them, the medical authorities, they have not research about women health. They only have as a subject the men, actually the white men, average men. So the thing is, there are some stereotyping here that are gender-based but also age-based, uh, that make sense with the power relation between the medical authorities and the patient.

That is that first you are not being honest when you go to the doctor appointment, no, this is the stereotyping. The stereotyping is you are not being honest, you are [00:42:00] inventing these symptoms, you don't want to work, you are being exaggerated. Maybe you are just going through a depression. Maybe I'm gonna medicate you to just calm down.

No? And when we are talking about children, we are not only talking about children affected by these health conditions, we are talking also about the rights of the parents that have these health conditions to be involved in their children's lives in the same way that everyone else. Because if you as a parent can't go to the school to the meetings with the teachers, or you can't go to the football mats of your child because these environmental barriers, your rights to not being discriminated are being violated.

And this is very [00:43:00] important. It's important to take them into account. So I cannot talk about one kind of or one prominent discrimination. I need to talk about intersectional discrimination, considering especially the gender perspective, the age perspective, and the health perspective

Aaron Goodman: I wanted to just to share something. When you talk about parents being discriminated, and I recognize as a white man I have certain privileges, but I have difficulty going to my children's musical performances or end of the year performances when all the parents sit at the front, I have to sit at the back near the window, near the door.

Paloma Torres López: Once I was discussing with the principal who wanted to shut the door, and I had to advocate to keep the door open. But in a legal or a social-legal perspective, what rights do I have? What can I present in those situations? Say, "Hey, I have rights too." This is very [00:44:00] interesting because it's about discrimination and it's about rights, and this specific discrimination is called discrimination by association.

Actually, your children are being indirectly by association being discriminated because they cannot enjoy education, or they cannot enjoy free time and activities in the same way that other children because of the lack of accessibility for their parents. So this is what we call discrimination by association, and it's under the UN Convention Human Rights of People with Disabilities.

But it's a concept that is not usually used in the day-to-day action. Okay? But you can use with this, you can use the same mechanisms that I've been talking about. This requires a reasonable [00:45:00] accommodation requirement that is that you can access these spaces in the same way that other parents. So it's exactly the same, but the discrimination is not only being suffered by you, but also for your children.

Aaron Goodman: I feel self-conscious talking about myself in this interview, but I know that a lot of people listening, and I hear from people all the time who have children face the same thing time and time again, so your insights are very valuable. But moving on, I want to ask you, how is the distinction between having MCS recognized as a medical condition and having the disability and functional limitations caused by MCS legally recognized?

Paloma Torres López: Okay. It's not about differences. They are not mutually excluded. Of course, the first of them to [00:46:00] have this health condition recognized medically is gonna help you to have the disability recognized, of course. So it's important that we continue pushing medical research and medical recognition, and it's important that to keep an eye on this advocacy line, of course, because always it's gonna help.

However, as I told you before, the evaluation of the disability that a person suffers when their health condition is met with barriers, that could be also misinformation. Misinformation is a barrier, for instance. Environmental barriers, physical barriers, attitudinal barriers. This evaluation doesn't have to depend on a [00:47:00] medical recognition of the disease.

This is very important, and this is something that depends entirely on the models that every country has to understand. For instance, when we were discussing with a lawyer colleague from the Netherlands, and they were saying not about SQM, but about, uh, they were saying that they have recognized electrosensitivity as a disability.

This is not something that could happen in Spain, for instance. It's not that a disease means disability. In the system in Spain, this doesn't work like this. So what we need is to understand the impact of the barriers in people lives and gather them in these [00:48:00] books and these reports that the public administrations are gonna use in order to evaluate the disability.

Aaron Goodman: So it doesn't matter if you have been medically recognized. What matters is the impact of the barriers in your life. So this is, I think, the perspective that we should have. Do you think this perspective, this human rights and disability strategy could work outside of Spain? For example, could people in Canada, the US, other countries make similar arguments about environmental barriers to request reasonable accommodation and accessibility?

Paloma Torres López: Absolutely, because we have the same international legal framework, UN Convention of the Rights of People with Disabilities. [00:49:00] Of course, if there are some countries that have not ratified the UN convention, then no. My answer is absolutely yes. With colleagues from Sweden and the Netherlands, we were sharing our different perspectives on how to deal with cases, on how to accompany the civil society organizations, and actually it was the same perspective.

We were using the same tools, the same mechanisms, but on our own. So it's very, very important that we try to go together to learn from each other. Of course, its national system is different, and each one is gonna have different, uh, barriers, but we need to use this. And especially in the context of the European Union, we have also more reasons to go together and to try to advocacy in this sense.

Aaron Goodman: But of course, if any country that has ratified this UN convention, uh, [00:50:00] they have the legal framework, so they can use it. Perhaps as a last question, the debate among researchers about what exactly is causing MCS or what's happening in the body when we have reactions, there are still many different theories, and not all clinicians and researchers believe it's a physiological illness that's in the body.

Paloma Torres López: Do we need to wait for there to be medical or scientific consensus for us to advocate for our rights? Of course, we don't have to wait. Please don't wait because this could be very long. I'm not a doctor. I'm not able to determine the origin of these diseases. Of course, I think civil society organizations, they know.

They have a lot of doctors working, researching, publishing, and I think there is no doubt that the biological origin. However, we don't have to wait [00:51:00] for that because if we only have the health perspective, we are just talking about early diagnosis, early treatment. Of course, it's gonna be easy to access to other rights like disability related rights.

But this could take a long time. This could take a lot of things that might not happen. And you guys have rights as people that cannot access the rights in the same way that everyone else. And why? Because you have some health conditions that are met with barriers. So this is the important thing. We need to focus on that to advance rights, to go farther, and then if the medical recognition arrives, it's gonna be welcome, and it's gonna make easier everything else.

Aaron Goodman: You've been listening to The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast [00:52:00]. I'm the host and podcast creator Aaron Goodman. The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast is by and for the MCS community. The podcast is generously supported by the Marilyn Brachman Hoffman Foundation and listeners like you. If you wish to support the podcast, please visit listen.chemicalsensitivitypodcast.org.

Your support will help us continue making the podcast available and creating greater awareness about MCS. To learn more about The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast, follow the podcast on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, BlueSky, X, and TikTok. And you can reach me as always at aaron at chemicalsensitivitypodcast dot org.

Thanks for listening. 

The Chemical Sensitivity Podcast and its associated website are the work of Aaron Goodman made possible with funds from the Marilyn Brachman Hoffman Foundation supporting efforts to educate and inform physicians, scientists, and the public about Multiple Chemical Sensitivity. The content, [00:53:00] opinions, findings, statements, and recommendations expressed in this Chemical Sensitivity Podcast and associated website do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of its sponsors.